From Tom Nelson – too good not to share.
More proof that Fraudster Al Gore doesn’t know how to use the Internet
Al’s Journal: June26th, 2011 Ice and Snow Disappearing from Mt. Rainier
The effects of the climate crisis are hitting closer and closer to home:
Deep Snow Delaying Opening of Sunrise Area at Mount Rainier National Park | National Parks Traveler
[June 21, 2011] Too much snow will keep the Sunrise area in Mount Rainier National Park closed through the Fourth of July weekend and until at least July 8, according to park officials. Also, the White River Campground won’t open until July 1.
As the accompanying photos show, there really is a lot of snow still waiting to melt away at Sunrise.
And it isn’t just Washington:
Western snow pack is well above normal, Squaw Valley sets new all time snowĀ record
And here’s Willis complete and thorough debunking of another recent snowfall study claiming reduction in snowpack: Gotta Admire TheĀ Chutzpah
How is that possible when he invented it?
Clearly when Al said ‘disappearing’, he really meant ‘increasing due to Climate Disruption’.
Is it just me or does the second picture seem to have a lot more trees than the first. Are you sure they’re of the same location?
Gore blimey !!!!!
I posted this link a couple of days ago, but it definitely belongs here.
As of late June, the current snowpack in some areas is as much as 391 TIMES average.
That would be 39100% if percent could even be used in this context!
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2011/06/olympic-snowpack-is-39100-percent-of.html
A picture tells a thousand words, or should I say two pictures!
Only confirms what everyone already knows, that AG couldn’t find his arse with both hands.
Since when has Al Gore cared about what is happening in reality? He probably still has hanging chads dancing in his head.
“This entry was posted in Al Gore is an idiot”
How many terabytes does that category take up on the server? I’d think that filing and maintaining articles in that category would employ 20-30 people full time.
Might past melts have something to do with Mt. Rainier being a volcano?
http://www.nps.gov/mora/naturescience/volcanoes.htm
Gee, Mt.St. Helens lost 100% of its snow and ice on May 18 1980! This, of course isn’t due to climate, and nor will Rainier be when it decides to wake up. And, because it IS an active volcano, how much of that Rhode Island-sized inundation is perhaps due to volcanic heat flow? Not a single nod to that possibility in the WP article. No matter. WHEN (and that is a certainty, Mr. Gore) Mt Rainier decides to get warm from within, that lovely snowcap and all will translate into a lahar aimed at the Seattle area.
I can’t see how a volcano’s snowcap can be used to gauge climate. It makes no sense. But like most geologists, I look at AGW in the Anthropocene as some fancy terminology to inflate the importance of what has happened for time immemorial…unprecedented????
What is funny is the source Gore cites for the information proves he’s a half-truther aka a liar
“Mount Rainierās ice and snow coverage expanded from the late 1950s to around 1980 during a wetter-than-normal phase of a climate cycle called the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. These recent trends indicate that Mount Rainierās glaciers are very sensitive to warming and could grow again with modest changes in temperature or precipitation, the scientists say. ”
Gore conveniently (as liars do) ignores mentioning that portion of the facts and sticks with the 14% reduction from 1970-2008 as the only facts he deems worthy of mentioning.
I am sorry but there is no link between what Al Gore is stating on his website, and what this report is stating. ie he (or the washington post story) states that snow/ice has reduced 14% over the last 40 years. This story says there is more snow for this time of year. But compared to what? 2 years ago? 40 years ago?
I would love for Gore to be wrong, but I do not know the snow/ice details in the area, but it should be that which the story compares his claims with. Does anyone have a 40 year comparison which goes up to the current date (not 2007/8 which the WP reports cites)?
I am not trying to be troll like or difficult I promise.
I can not recall correctly, but I think it was 1970 with Mount Rainier also had another record snow fall. I believe the amount was 1200 inches. That could explain a lot. Also Mount Rainier has been known to have hot spots develop which melt snow and ice regardless of the local weather. It is hard to keep up with what is going on Mount Rainier here in the Mid West.
My question for anyone here is this, and I’m a skeptic also…the amount of snow that was received this winter was much above average. But how does this play to the long term affects. In his blog, and I’m not a fan of Al’s, he states “ice and permanent snow atop Washington state’s Mount Rainier melted in the past four decades”.
One heavy snow winter doesn’t make up for that long term of a loss, if it has in fact occurred. Can anyone give me a good answer to that cause I’m really wondering. Now, if this type of winter occurred continously over the next decade, I could see the argument, but weather doesn’t make climate…
@Adam – I first thought the same but then realized that the camera angle and distance from the restroom building is causing the difference. The photographer is likely elevated due to the existing snowpack.
Adam;
Yes, I think the second picture is shot from a higher elevation. Since the spot the original photog was standing is under about 20′ of snow, that’s rather inevitable, doncha think?
LOL
“How is that possible when he invented it?”: – Arthur C. Clarke’s very first story, “Travel by Wire” (1937): “I don’t travel by wire! You see, I helped invent the thing!” Score one more for Sir Arthur as a prophet…
polistra says:
June 27, 2011 at 3:46 am
Note it’s only 39000% more than average.
I really hate late season comparisons like this. If normal for today is 1″, and normal melting is 0.5″, then tomorrow there ought to be 781X normal. Utterly meaningless. More useful is to look at graphs of snow depth and compare them to other years, e.g. Mt. Mansfield in VT has data for their snow stake going back decades.
See http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/?Page=.%2Fmansel.php3&dir=.
Is the lower picture really taken from the same spot? Because if it is, it looks like there are a clump of trees growing where the Sunrise restrooms are supposed to be.
The one thing that sticks in my mind the most about Gore is from the debates during his election attempt. I still remember vividly his comments about his plan of creating a lock-box for social security. He was still trying to add more to that even though the debate had moved on to several other topics. Looks like a pattern to me, Gore is stuck in yesterday regardless of what today is!
Government itself moves very slowly and I think that is one big problem regarding most of the so called studies that are done. By the time a study is financed, organized, executed and then written up all the circumstances pertaining to it have changed completely and therefore the conclusion/s is/are no longer valid just like Gore no longer being valid in anyway what so ever!.
My family and I visited Yosemite 2 weeks ago and were unable to go to Mono Lake because Tioga Pass was still snow-blocked.
However, due to the overabundance of snow, Bridal Veil and Yosemite Falls were magnificent!
I visited a warmista blog a couple of weeks ago and was amazed at the mental contortions they undertook as they tried to explain how this heavy snowpack is all due to Global Warming and CO2.
They frequently contradicted themselves in the same post, but were so sure of their belief that they would vilify anyone who tried to point out discrepancies in their thinking and they were certainly not going to allow any links to data which challenged their viewpoints.
Evidence means nothing to those people and yet, they consider themselves to be far ‘smarter’ than everyone else.
Roy UK says:
June 27, 2011 at 5:15 am
_________________________________________
Roy, check out the links (especially Willis’ link) at top o’ this page…
I live between Seattle and Mt. Rainier. It snowed here in late May. We have only had about three days above 70 all summer. Mt. Rainier is looking more snow-covered than I have seen it in years.
They compared 1970’s “estimates” with 2007’s ” measurements”, I would like to know about the accuracy of estimating glacial thickness from aerial photos.
Unfortunately fir trees do not grow that much during the winter.(or even during a couple of winters for that matter) – Have a close, critical, look at the two pictures – and be disappointed ā that is if you think this story and the two pictures go well together.
@Mike Lewis and Brian H;
I cannot agree with you. The size of the marker tree top in both pics is about the same, yet the horizontal distance from the marker tree to the foreground trees in the summer pic is nearly twice that in the winter pic. The difference in height of the trees behind and to the right of the marker tree cannot be accounted for just from the shot angle or distance. Furthermore, if the winter pic is looking down onto the tops of the foreground trees there appear to be a significantly larger number of stems than in the summer pic. And finally the hillside behind the restrooms n the summer pic is a long distance in the background, but in the winter pic is appears immediately behind the alleged snow-covered restrooms with very large diameter trees. There seem to be just way too many discrepancies to convince me they are the same, even if it was shot from a helo. If the actual photographer that shot both images comes forward with an explanation, I might change my mind.
Mark says:
June 27, 2011 at 5:22 am
…but weather doesnāt make climateā¦
Uh? Thirty years worth of weather is climate!
Adam, -why – if the tree-top ringed red is more or less unchanged are the trees to the right and left of it so big?
Again, we’re called the D-word because we supposedly deny a changing climate exists, yet Gore seems to think the snowpack, glaciers, rainfall patterns, sea levels, etc ad nauseum, should remain constant and unchanging. If there were too much snow and it never melted in the summer, they’d be screaming “ICE AGE!!”, but when it melts a week earlier than “normal” it’s “GLOBAL WARMING!!”. Don’t they realize there’s no such thing as “normal”, and that very few things will be average?
That would make it NOT permanent, wouldn’t it.
I’ll bet most of the glacier loss on Rainier occurred before 1950, as most around the world has.
I cannot understand why so many Americans and others continue to venerate Al Gore. He only opens his mouth to change feet!
The more Gore Fails, the larger his credentials become for the progressives. It seems like an unwritten law like Murphy’s that one can only point to the myriad of times it has happened – and yet they still look to him as the second coming of Gaia.
Thank you Mike and Brian.
Yeah, and what happened to the people in the picture? /sarc
It is pretty obvious to me that the photographer in the snow covered picture is at least 50 feet further away from the building and maybe 50 yards to the right of the building.
Jeff Alberts says @ June 27, 2011 at 7:48 am “Again, weāre called the D-word because we supposedly deny a changing climate exists, yet Gore seems to think the snowpack, glaciers, rainfall patterns, sea levels, etc ad nauseum, should remain constant and unchanging. ”
That is a strawman augment – climate science isn’t saying that nothing should change. Climate science is warning that the rate and cause that are different now…
I notice from the source of the photographs linked to above that they are both from the National Parks Service.
Are the doubters here suggesting that the NPS faked the photos?
“Climate science is warning that the rate and cause that are different nowā¦”
Actually, it’s not. Politicians and pseudo-religious types are saying that.
The pictures come from the NPS Mt. Rainier web site see link for article and pictures of this years snow. The snow depth in some of the National Parks this late in the year is truly impressive but probably not record breaking. I follow the Glacier National Park site as I will be up there in a few weeks and I am hoping that Going to the Sun road is open but its looking mid July right now.
http://www.nps.gov/mora/parknews/delayed-opening-and-free-entrance.htm
On a side note. I was looking for historical opening dates for GTSR and came upon a Glacier National Park chat site. Looking at historic averages for opening dates from 1950 to 2002 the average opening date is June 7 but if you use 1950 to 2010 the average opening date is June 14 and using just the last 8 years the average opening date is June 23. Doesn’t look like snow is disapearing in the northern Rockies.
http://glacier.nationalparkschat.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5998&p=68975
It’s about time to start feeling sorry for Al Gore. The people he snowed used to have deeper pockets.
=============
Moderate Republican says:
June 27, 2011 at 8:15 am
Jeff Alberts says @ June 27, 2011 at 7:48 am āAgain, weāre called the D-word because we supposedly deny a changing climate exists, yet Gore seems to think the snowpack, glaciers, rainfall patterns, sea levels, etc ad nauseum, should remain constant and unchanging. ā
That is a strawman augment ā climate science isnāt saying that nothing should change. Climate science is warning that the rate and cause that are different nowā¦
_____________________________________________________________
Again, you are welcome to prove your case for AGW by providing links to support your view..
You might try that for a change- see if your ‘evidence’ stands up to scrutiny.
Katherine, OHD, etc.;
the trees to the right are not bigger. They’re just more visible, because the photog is higher off the ground (standing on all the snow, Duh!), and so more of the trees are visible. Also, the second is shot from further back and ‘offscreen left’ compared to the first. The roofline is rather clear, and gives you the right orientation.
Your fantasies of being deceived are groundless. So sorry.
I estimate the damage an article does to the AGW cause by the number of trolls that pop up here with specious arguments in response. This article is a winner.
Washington State is sitting out global warming. A bit of a dichotomy given what a blue state this is. Not only that – our newest glacier is doing just fine, thank you. It is forming a glistening necklace of ice around the new lava dome inside the crater of Mt. St. Helens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crater_Glacier
http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/volcanocams/msh/views/static-highdef.php
Glad to seem I’m not the only one that’s read the story.
From 6/27/2011 Mount Rainier web page:
http://www.nps.gov/mora/index.htm
Sunrise opening with limited services July 1, 2011.
Crews continue to clear snow from Sunrise. Utilities and services will be limited. Trails are covered in deep snow and winter conditions persist. The Sunrise Day Lodge & gift shop will be open.
So … as you dodged the core subject matter of this post by Tom Nelson, has Gore in your opinion has a) hit or b) missed the mark with his (Algore’s) post on his journal?
Here’s what Al Gore posted in his journal: Alās Journal: June26th, 2011 Ice and Snow Disappearing from Mt. Rainier:
Whereas reality is indicating something different: Deep Snow Delaying Opening of Sunrise Area at Mount Rainier National Park | National Parks Traveler
As others have noted, you don’t seem to pay too much attention to cites, links or facts … so I don’t expect anything resembling cogency …
.
MR, your response is a strawman. The quote you repeated said nothing about “climate science”, but rather Al Gore. So unless you are a spokesman for him, or can channel his thoughts, your response is non-sequitur.
@Luther Wu says:
“climate science isnāt saying that nothing should change. Climate science is warning that the rate and cause that are different nowā¦”
Actually that’s a simplification. Climate science isn’t warning that at all. Some climate scientist, and a whole lot of CAGW believers, are saying and warning about that though, yet without actually proving anything.
Rational climate scientists on the other hand aren’t warning anyone of CAGW because there’s no proof of any such thing.
Why warn about something that there is no proof of?
PhilJourdan says @ June 27, 2011 at 10:33 am “MR, your response is a strawman. The quote you repeated said nothing about āclimate scienceā, but rather Al Gore.”
No – not really. Many here use Gore as a proxy for modern climate science, so it is relevant.
But, in the spirit of your response and if everyone here is going to hold themselves to a higher standard of accuracy here (meaning no “anyone who doesn’t doubt the science is a left wing one world government blah blah blah) I’ll respond more specifically.
That is still a strawman unless you can show that Gore has publicly and repeatedly said that there is no natural variability.
_Jim says @ June 27, 2011 at 10:26 am “Whereas reality is indicating something different: Deep Snow Delaying Opening of Sunrise Area at Mount Rainier National Park | National Parks Traveler”
So one mountain is proof of what exactly? That is just as bogus as the weather vs climate mistake often made.
@ _Jim – my apologies. I missed the quote being from his actual post which makes the earlier response above inaccurate. I mistook your response for snow on Ranier as being a proxy rather than being directly reference in Gore’s text. Sorry.
What Gore said;
“About 14 percent of the ice and permanent snow atop Washington state’s Mount Rainier melted in the past four decades, a new study suggests. Researchers arrived at that figure by comparing the estimated thickness and extent of ice seen in a 1970 aerial survey with those measured in 2007 and 2008. All but two of the 28 glaciers and snowfields on the mountain have thinned and shortened at their lower edges, and the exceptions probably thickened only because large amounts of rock fell upon the ice in recent years and insulated it from warming temperatures.”
One years heavy snow is unlikely to change the conditions he referenced above.
Well a lot of times, the one who invented it isn’t the best one to be using it. Like for example, suppose a geeky nerd invents a new ray gun, or flying car. Do you really want the awkward weak nerd operating this dangerous equipment? No, not really. The confident and strong (if non-intellectual) alpha type is much more suited for action and application of said dangerous equipment. And Al is like. . . oh never mind.
Now, now, we really don’t know that the Goracle (I like how that has a simile with icicle, at least philosophically) wrote the article, or indeed if he actually writes anything himself at all. It was possibly a staff drone, and I’m sure someone, somewhere, has a computer model that would prove this hypotheses……..
Clearly the second picture has been photo shopped to disguise the relationship to the first picture.
MR says:
“That is still a strawman unless you can show that Gore has publicly and repeatedly said that there is no natural variability.”
So skeptics must once again prove a negative? Let me rephrase properly:
“That is still a strawman unless you can show that Gore has publicly and repeatedly said that natural variability is the reason for the mild warming since the LIA.”
Fixed.
Notice the date to the Washington Post article he links to:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/science/mount-rainier-has-lost-14-percent-of-its-ice-and-snow/2011/06/07/AGMXFdTH_story.html
Then check out the realtime link
http://www.google.com/search?q=Ice+and+Snow+Disappearing+from+Mt.+Rainier&hl=en&sa=X&tbs=tl:1,tlul:1995,tluh:2011,tl_num:20&prmd=ivnsb&ei=YcoITuHhC5OatwfWjozlDQ&ved=0CKoBEMsBKAI&biw=1004&bih=594
I hate when they do that . . . . looks to me like someone is running a news loop!!!!
“When there is a contradiction . . . . check your premises” Ayn Rand
Mt. Washington ski area on Vancouver Island is opening for skiing for a few days July 1st. So I will go skiing in the morning and then head for the beach for some wind surfing and babe watching. Will be a great day.
Again, unless you are their spokesperson, or you can link to their statement, or you are channeling them, your statement is again a strawman. You may “ASSUME” they are, you may even “BELIEVE” they are, but unless they told you they are, your statement is again a non-sequitur.
I see that “Moderate Republican” made it to these forums. We’ve been enlightening a poster with the same name for over a year over on the following newspaper’s blog:
http://orangepunch.ocregister.com/category/environment
[If Moderate Republican continues using pejorative comments regarding WUWT on other forums, such as: “you linked to a known denier site that references the usual denier bad science,” his future comments may be deleted due to bad manners. ~dbs, mod.]
1DandyTroll says:
June 27, 2011 at 10:50 am
____________________________
Pardon, you replied to something which I did not say.
That is all.
I’ll bet there’s lots of things Al doesn’t know. Somebody with a lot of free time on their hands could start a list.
Roy UK says:
June 27, 2011 at 5:15 am
I am sorry but there is no link between what Al Gore is stating on his website, and what this report is stating. ie he (or the washington post story) states that snow/ice has reduced 14% over the last 40 years.
Tacoma Water and Power has kept track of snowpack on Mt Rainier since 1935. Mt Rainier is the primary ‘water reservoir’ providing both drinking water and hydro power to the City of Tacoma.
Any scientific report based on 1970 to 2008 released in the year 2011 is Cherry Picking. The 2009 and 2010 data are clearly known by various public officials.
Why pick a 38 year time frame…why not a 75 year time frame…why not a 40 year time frame?
Ah, I see our mild-mannered PT is at it again…
The only thing anyone uses al-Gore for is a proxy for all-you-can-eat buffet availability.
In fact, the guy gets EVERYTHING wrong. He’ll dig up the tiniest little “could” from someone who seems to agree with his “cause” and start proclaiming it as truth. Seriously, his ridiculous movie is riddled with inaccuracies and outright falsehoods… which is apparently good enough for Hollywood and good enough for the Academy. He misquotes “climate scientists” all the time, and as far as I can tell a few of them would be more than willing to distance themselves from him.
In this case, reality ONCE AGAIN smacks Mr. Gore right in the face. Here he is spreading doom, gloom, and alarm over horrible snow losses, right at a time when snow is at record levels. That’s on the same intellectual level as, say, 0bama complaining about Reagan driving up the deficit. It’s just… wrong… and upside down.
Here’s the thing, PT M.R.: YOU don’t get to define “climate”, and neither does al-Gore. Climate is an average. Not a cherry picked average from 1917 to 1924, or whatever seems to show your point. An AVERAGE. You average out long-term weather up to and including today, you have Climate. Stopping the averaging at 2008 or choosing a start point right at a high point of a long-term climate oscillation is dishonest. This is actually a very simple concept. I’m pretty sure my cat could grasp it, but I KNOW a 6-year old that understands it.
Either way, snow pack is high all along the Rockies, and although I heard ALL ABOUT the horrible heat wave in the east a few weeks back, since I’ve heard nothing since I have to assume it’s over and done? We have only had 2 days this year above 75F… brrr…
PhilJourdan says @ June 27, 2011 at 11:33 am “Again, unless you are their spokesperson, or you can link to their statement, or you are channeling them”
PhilJourdan says @ June 27, 2011 at 8:02 am “The more Gore Fails, the larger his credentials become for the progressives.The more Gore Fails, the larger his credentials become for the progressives.”
Seems pretty clear there, no Phil? Or how about a quick sampling elsewhere here;
brc says @ June 22, 2011 at 6:42 pm “The fact is Gore and his ilk…”
JJB MKI says @ June 22, 2011 at 6:54 pm “Gore and fellow doom-fetishists…”
Roger Sowell says @ June 22, 2011 at 9:52 pm “Al Gore and his minions…”
Paul Nevins says @ June 23, 2011 at 7:24 am “Al Gore and his crew”
Moderate Republican, question:
Do you have a normal job? Or do you just sit in your mom’s basement and troll thru climate blogs?
Yes or No?Ā āŗ
Unless you think he is perfect – and can never fail – he has failed. So again, you are creating a strawman. Had I ennumerated his failures, you would be free to disagree with my list. However since I merely talked about his failures in general, you can either agree that he has failed (2k comes to mind as one failure – he did not win his home state), or disagree. Or use a non-sequitur strawman – which you chose to do the latter. So argue with yourself. You are not apparently debating anything I said.
Say Smokey… did you wander through the OCRegister link posted above? Apparently this is a full time occupation for, as one person calls him, “moderate fake republican”.
Once again, though, I am truly in awe at the post just above yours. In it, attempting to demonstrate that realists (oh sorry, d-word people) take al-Gore as representative of “climate science”, he simply spews a few quotes back that have nothing to do with what he’s supposedly trying to show.
If I had someone like al-Gore on MY side, I’d seriously consider switching sides. Or at the very least, distancing myself from that person. He doesn’t even represent mainstream (fabricated) “climate science”… he just represents himself.
Apparently in PT land, it’s absolutely against the rules to ever admit you are wrong about anything, not even the slightest point, in spite of the fact that your incorrectness is glaringly, blatantly obvious to everyone who even casually glances at it.
Luther Wu says:
June 27, 2011 at 6:46 am
Roy UK says:
June 27, 2011 at 5:15 am
_________________________________________
Roy, check out the links (especially Willisā link) at top oā this pageā¦
Thank you Luther, I was rushing this morning and could not read all of the links thoroughly. I have now read through Willis’ post and understand.
I am no scientist, but I eyeballed the charts and realise there is a lot of seasonal variation but no “death spiral” to see in the graphs.
Actually there is no change at all as far as I can see. How can a scientist be allowed to publish a paper full of nonsense and cherry picking of dates?
This just in: Due to disruptions in the Weather, there will be no Climate this summer.
Al Gore cites: national newspaper coverage of peer reviewed study.
Watts Up With That cites: random dude with a camera phone.
WUWT FTW?
Climate Majority,
Al Einstein was just a random dude with a pencil and paper, opposed by an open letter signed by 100 scientists telling the world that the Theory of Relativity was wrong.
Same-same.
@Luther Wu says:
June 27, 2011 at 12:04 pm
1DandyTroll says:
June 27, 2011 at 10:50 am
____________________________
Pardon, you replied to something which I did not say.
That is all.
Well, well, well, of course you didn’t and no mercy for the wicked, sorry. It should’ve been directed to:
@Moderate Republican says:
āclimate science isnāt saying that nothing should change. Climate science is warning that the rate and cause that are different nowā¦ā
Actually thatās a simplification. Climate science isnāt warning that at all. Some climate scientist, and a whole lot of CAGW believers, are saying and warning about that though, yet without actually proving anything.
Rational climate scientists on the other hand arenāt warning anyone of CAGW because thereās no proof of any such thing.
Why warn about something that there is no proof of?
PhilJourdan says @ June 27, 2011 at 1:12 pm “Unless you think he is perfect ā and can never fail ā he has failed. So again, you are creating a strawman. ”
Um, no. You are misusing the concept of a Strawman.
Odd that you’d jump to the y2k election as a response.
~dbs, mod said @ June 27, 2011 at 11:33 am “[If Moderate Republican continues using pejorative comments regarding WUWT on other forums, such as: “you linked to a known denier site that references the usual denier bad science,” his future comments may be deleted due to bad manners. ~dbs, mod.]
Slip up on my part – you won’t see that elsewhere after that one reference above since the exchange w/ Anthony on the 14th. Understand the point being raised dbs.
Ken says:
June 27, 2011 at 8:11 am
It is pretty obvious to me that the photographer in the snow covered picture is at least 50 feet further away from the building and maybe 50 yards to the right of the building.
Perhaps you have the distances wrong, but I fully agree with the directions. Add this to the height difference – 2nd photo taken from atop of the snow – and the one year growth of the extreme tops of the trees, and it is reasonable to accept that the image is of the same area especially since the source says it is.
You can see the “roof line” in the second photo too, although we have no real idea how much snow is on the roof.
Is there disagreement over whether there is more snow there this year than last year or is that now an accepted fact?
As someone who worked at Mt Rainier National Park in my HS years, (’79, ’80, ’81), and as someone who lives 50 miles from Rainier and goes there often, I can tell you this is unprecedented in my time here on Earth. Sunrise routinely opens the last week of May, first week of June. Typically this time of year at Sunrise, snow is limited to drifts 2-3′ deep in shady regions. The meadows are always clear this time of year.
And no, the fact that Mt Rainier is an active volcano has nothing to do with the snowfall at Sunrise. Sunrise is 6500′ and the summit is 14411′. There is a very large valley with the Emmons Glacier between the summit and Sunrise. Sunrise is not on the mountain itself.
And a lahar would not affect Seattle. A look at a contour map would tell you that.
Once upon a time a liar cites: a group of other liars’ coverage of another group of liars’ study, which extolled the virtues of the Emperor’s clothes.
Unfortunately there was a dude with a cameraphone along the parade route who took a picture of the naked Emperor with No Clothes.
So, who are you going to believe, the Emperor with No Clothes and his entourage of slavish liars, or your own eyes and a rational brain?
Climate Majority says:
June 27, 2011 at 2:43 pm
Watts Up With That cites: random dude with a camera phone
How about the Washington State Climatologist…after all…Mr Rainier is in Washington State, not Washington DC.
http://www.climate.washington.edu/newsletter/2011Jun.pdf
How about the live cams run by the National Park Service.
http://www.nps.gov/webcams-mora/gh.jpg
http://www.nps.gov/webcams-mora/east.jpg
http://www.nps.gov/webcams-mora/west.jpg
I’m fortunate in that weather permitting, I get to see Mt Rainier almost everyday.
A couple of years ago it was admittedly looking not so snow-capped. But last year ‘summer weather’ lasted about a week…and this year is shaping up to be worse.
Smokey: nice metaphor, but I think it might be a slight exaggeration š
USGS and other groups have been taking glacier measurements of mt rainier for years. The glaciers are receding AND thinning. Why? Warmer/drier conditions over the course of the last 40 years. [snip. You are using WUWT to advertise your new blog. Just say what you want right here. That’s what this forum is for. And it’s Anthony Watts or Mr. Watts. ~dbs, mod.]
Watts’ conclusion is not in line with the data. Make sure you read the study, the article, and google “Mt Rainier glacier measurements”.
Moderate Republican says:
June 27, 2011 at 12:53 pm
Johnny Carson had an app for that: famous women known for thier trains.
Al Gore is presently known for the blizzards that follow his AGW speeches, but previously had an association with hanging chad (complex courtesy of W). Somehow, I don’t see the GOP rolling out the red carpet for either Als blizzards or his chad.
harrywr2 says @ June 27, 2011 at 3:55 pm “How about the Washington State Climatologistā¦after allā¦Mr Rainier is in Washington State, not Washington DC”
From the report you cited on the snow coverage made this observation “While unusual, it is not unprecedented. The winter of 1998/99 (water year 1999), for example, had similar snowpack growth through May at Paradise (Figure 4b).”.
Offering up any one year as evidence of a reversal of longer term trends remains iffy, since evidentially what happened in the winter of 1998/99 wasn’t enough to forestall longer term trends and what happened this year (unfortunately) isn’t like to do that either.
“About 14 percent of the ice and *permanent* snow atop Washington state’s Mount Rainier melted in the past *four decades*, a new study suggests.”
None of that can be contradicted simply by a photo of snow.
Moderate Republican is correct – a lot of skeptics on this site do link Gore to climate science as if Gore making a mistake means climate science has made a mistake. In this case however, I suspect this blog has made the mistake – confusing weather with longterm changes in permanent snow and ice cover.
Well, it would be, if only it weren’t.
We’re constantly being told that changes in a certain direction, even in multiple directions (more snow, less snow; floods and drought) are bad. This would imply that the climate should be unchanging, or that it should only get colder. Is that what you expect?
Besides, there’s no evidence that the rate or magnitude of change is any worse now that at previous changes during this or other interglacials. The vaunted hockey stick cannot be validated prior to 1500 ce, and even that validation is shaky due to the use of proxies which have not been shown to be valid temperature proxies. And then there’s the divergence problem…
So the strawman would seem to have a lot of flesh.
I wonder what the snowpack was like from say 900ce to 1100ce? Oops! We don’t know!
Take your own advice about short term trends.
“Why? Warmer/drier conditions over the course of the last 40 years.”
I’m sure it’s the drier and not the warmer part. It’s still friggin’ freezing up there.
Of course Western Washington doesn’t get as much precip as people think. Summers are usually VERY dry. Dallas gets more annual rainfall than Seattle. And as Harry mentioned above, last summer (and the one before that) have been extremely cool. So far we’re in for more of the same.
Global Warming aint global.
What happened this year is a continuation of what happened last year.
In the UK, it’s 3 years in a row.
This, I suspect, is the result of an external event, as it has sucessfully turned around the warming, and sent it back down the hill. Al comes tumlbing after. The whole Agenda is suffering from freezerburn and snowbound passes.
First, it is not just one year of heavy snow. There was a recent warm cycle, and we are now in a cold cycle. The effects are starkly obvious in our Puget Sound garden. The warmth loving plants thrived in the Nineties, and they have been ddying out in the garden in the past ten years. Even some of the Washington State native plants have been killed by the extraordinary low temperatures in the recent winters of the past ten years.
Second, the Mount Ranier glaciers have been retreating overall with interspersed brief advances ever since their most recent maximum glaciation in the Little Ice Age of the 14th to 19th Centuries. The 1950 to 1978 period was one of those cold periods during which the Mount Ranier glaciers had a tendency to stabilize and advance, while the warm cycle about 1978 to 1998 or later was their period of retreat during a warm cycle. These brief advances followed by renewed retreats have occurred about seven times since the 18th Century according to a geological report/s studying the terminal morraines resulting from these glacial cycles.
If anything, loss of glacial extent on Mount Ranier at the end of the 20th Century represents a confirmation of the same natural cycles that existed before anthropogenic influence and carbon dioxide emissions existed to any great measure. Hence, efforts to equate Mount Ranier’s glacial extent to anthropogenic activities lacks any rational basis.
Because the Earth’s climate is emerging from the recent Little Ice Age of the 14th to 19th Centuries. Mount Ranier’s glaciers were in retreat from their Pleistocene maximums, at which time they reached out to the seacoasts until the 14th Century advent of the Little Ice Age. During the Little Ice Age, Mount Ranier’s glaciers advanced again up to about 1850. With the end of the Little Ice Age, Mount Ranier’s glaciers resumed their post ice age retreats up to the present day, with the exception of about seven brief cold cycles during which they stabilized and/ormade minor advences before resuming their retreats in the subsequent renewed warm cycles.
Attempts to link Mount Ranier’s natural glacial extents to AGW are about as false, opportunistic, and contrary to scientific observation as linking blizzards and cold weather to Global Warming, Climate Change, and whatever the next oxymoron is to be used.
D Patterson – Thank you
The AGW theories would be less easy to refute if the LIA ended about the time when the last century C02 increases started.
@ D. Patterson – citations otherwise it’s just a personal opinion….
Moderate Republican says:
June 27, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Offering up any one year as evidence of a reversal of longer term trends remains iffy
And 2007 and 2008 were ‘BBQ Summers’ in Seattle and indeed the summer snow pack on Mt Rainier looked to anyone with a view of Mt Rainier within a 50 miles radius using a mark 8 eyeball analyzer to be ‘sad’.
2007 and 2008 doesn’t make a trend anymore then 2009 and 2010 make a trend.
Our local press bombarded us in 2008 with endless stories about the disparaging future of Mt Rainier.
A good technique I’ve learned over the years is to consult the ‘local press’ when some national newspaper reports some ‘important news’ concerning the locality. I can’t find any stories in the local press as to the ‘horrible state of Mt Rainier’ due to global warming.
The photo of Mt Rainier that appeared in the Washington Post story is somewhat outdated. http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/200291323-001/Photodisc
Here’s a nice u-tube video of some climbers climbing a snowbank at the Mt Rainier visitors center on June 13th so you can get an appreciation as to how deep the snow is this year.
“Gary says:
June 27, 2011 at 7:18 am
@Mike Lewis and Brian H;
I cannot agree with you….”
The “marker tree” isn’t what the circle refers to. The edge of the roof is in both pictures.
Citations? Why don’t you go out to Mount Ranier and check the positions of the moraines and their dates. The National Park Service and the U.S. Geological survey can help you with that. Direct observation is better than any citation. Of course, if you insist upon citations, we could just as easily disprove the existence of oxygen by citing the peer reviewed papers offering proof of phlostigon and ecotplasm. Eh? Or, perhaps you have a model from a peer reviewed paper you prefer to cite in support of the notion that glacial retreat is unprecedented since before Burma Shave?
lulu wrote
“And a lahar would not affect Seattle. A look at a contour map would tell you that.”
Not Seattle, but Orting and the Renton Valley, lots of Boeing facilities, could be hit.
I looked d on geologic maps when I lived there, and there were nice name s like “The Electron Mud Flow” where thousands of people live.
In their abstract, the authors suggest that the loss over the last 40 years was simply a correction of the unusually high accumulation of the previous 40 years due to the PDO. The entire article is behind a paywall and I don’t have spare monies to satisfy idle curiosity.
Note too, that this is a comparision of two “snapshots”, and not record of the annual extents over the entire time period.
The final sentence of the abstract, emphasis mine:
“Overall, Mount Rainier lost ā¼14 vol% glacial ice and perennial snow over the 37 to 38 yr interval between surveys. Enhanced thinning of south-flank glaciers may be meltback from the high snowfall period of the mid-1940s to mid-1970s associated with the cool phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation.”
Judging by the amount of snow on the ground, it looks like the Northwest has been having a worst summer than we have here in the Sierra.
Gore did make a mistake by uncritically and erroneously asserting and misrepesenting an erroneous paper published in a peer reviewed journal was some kind of valid evidence linking the glacial extents on Mount Ranier to human caused changes in global climate. Moderate Republican made a mistake by failing to recognize the peer reviewed paper was erroneous and Gore’s uncritical acceptance of the erroneous conclusions of the paper was unwarranted and erroneous.
A single photograph in some circumstances such as this are sufficient to demonstrate reality is contrary to what is claimed in the erroneous peer reviewed paper and the gore blog quotations of ithe erroneous conclusion/s.
A strawman is to take a statement to an extreme not indicated with the initial statement and then debunk it – just as you attempted to do.
I stated a fact that is not in dispute. Therefore you are free to believe that Gore is gospel when it comes to AGW – but you cannot disagree (unless you are just a bald faced liar) with my statement of his failure.
Mate,
The photos are the same, just on a different angle and further back. Look at the roof line. Its easy to see.
I am sure Al thinks that when all this snow melts the sea will rise 100 feet!