Green Hell Blog writes: The Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit refused late Friday to stop the EPA’s greenhouse gas rules from going into effect on January 2, 2011. The litigation over the rules will continue, but the court will allow them to go into effect pending the outcome of the litigation.
From WaPo
A U.S. appellate court Friday turned down a request from utilities, oil refiners and the state of Texas to delay the regulation of greenhouse gas emissions by the Environmental Protection Agency.
As a result, the EPA and state agencies can begin to insist that companies use the “best available control technologies” to restrict emissions of carbon dioxide to obtain air permits.
The companies and Texas had sought a court order blocking the EPA from moving ahead until the end of a lawsuit challenging the agency’s finding that greenhouse gas emissions from U.S. power plants and large industrial facilities endanger the health of Americans.
The companies contend in that lawsuit that the EPA regulations would be too costly.
But the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said that the companies “have not shown that the harms they allege are ‘certain,’ rather than speculative.”
h/t to Green Hell Blog
full story at the WashingtonPost
“Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket,” Obama told the Chronicle . “Coal-powered plants, you know, natural gas, you name it, whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money on to consumers.”
This may not be cap & tax – but it’s the ultimate goal.
erm – what part of “breaking” is a Dec 11 story?
U.S. Appeals Court,
I for one think Ira’s division of the components of the 0.8ºC reported rise is very close (± 0.1ºC for each component). That’s very close to my conclusions though it might be more 0.4ºC bias and 0.3ºC natural cycles.
If I were to comment deeper it would be on a more planetary level of cause, effects, and relationships. The equations being used to describe our atmosphere are not holding when applied to other atmospheres. The radiation equations are either wrong or assumptions are being made that don’t hold universally to all atmospheres. That’s what I take away after a year of study in this “climate scientology”.
That same comment applies better here. ☺
Hopefully they finish destroying the economy before America is dumb enough to re-elect Obama – then we can elect someone slightly more rational and begin rebuilding.
Honestly, what did you expect? This is a DC judge.
And the catastrophic effects of global warming are ‘certain,’ rather than speculative?
Any charge/fee/cost added onto the refining process or generating process at any stage adds to the cost of living, and does so with great rapidity. Energy companies are forced to either absorb the cost, pass on the cost or a combination of the two.
Consumers will cut spending and the economy will suffer a savage blow. Everything these days takes energy. Everything.
How nice of the Jackson EPA to fire a broadside at the limping economy.
With friends like that, who needs enemies?
-But the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said that the companies “have not shown that the harms they allege are ‘certain,’ rather than speculative.”-
Then, could one could suppose that the Court found that the EPA had proved that the harms from CO2 were certain, rather than speculative?
No?
What a joke.
This is the equivalent of a reverse stay of execution order.
We’ll hang the defendant pending the outcome of the appeal.
JinOH says:
January 31, 2011 at 3:19 pm
So where is this ‘cost’ supposed to be funded out of?
Ah, the consumers pocketbook and the economic lifeblood of a crippled America.
Look out: double-dip in the Great Recession.
http://weaselzippers.us/2011/01/31/house-republicans-introduce-bill-prohibiting-federal-agencies-from-unilaterally-enforcing-regulations-that-address-global-warming/
Can’t wait for the hearings in the house to begin !
Put the EPA under lock down financially.
Just noticed the the original elWaPo article has comments turned off…. Wonder why?
Health care falls today.
EPA tomorrow.
exactly, jst. It’s now up to the House to defund the EPA.
or abolish it, if necessary.
Once again, the DemocRAT party, or a judge owned by that party, issues a middle finger salute to the American people.
Regardless of what side of the science debate this judge may be on, it seems totally impossible to not see the “harms they allege.” In the meantime, Canadians will gladly sell you some extra electricity if regulations stall new power projects in the US.
As a result, the EPA and state agencies can begin to insist that companies use the “best available control technologies” to restrict emissions of carbon dioxide
============================================================
The best available control technology is the off switch.
Texas Governor Rick Perry vowed to defy the EPA edict. Time to see if he’s going to honor his promise to Texas or not. In the meantime the new US House of Representatives and Senator Inhofe needs to get Lisa Jackson on a short leash because right now she’s way off the reservation.
Too bad the judge ruled that way. He could have prevented so much wheel-spinning on the part of industry and regulators, since the stupid rule will almost certainly be thrown out by the Supreme Court, eventually. The “Tailoring Rule” is clearly not sanctioned by the Clean Air Act, so EPA is adding to the Act–something only Congress has the power to do. It’s amazing what dumb, illogical things the libs will do and say!
My all-time favorite is Nancy’s statement on the Obamacare: “We have to pass this bill, so we know what’s in it.” Gawd.
Well you lose some and you win some.
A Federal Judge in Florida ruled today that the entire Obamacare Bill of 2500 or so pages is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Doesn’t matter a jot that two other judges already ruled it was Constitutional. NOT trumps IS. The judge ruled on the fact that the Commerce clause gives power to regulate commerce that actually happens; but gives no authority to regulate the absence of commerce; meaning; can’t require anybody; let alone everybody to purchase a product form a thirfd party when they don’t want it.
And the judge found that that mandatory purchase was so pervasive into every asdpect of th3e 2500 page bill, that it was impossible (for him) to separate that aspect from everything else and scrap certain features. so he said the whole thing is kaput. He also denied ruling on Injunctive relief for the 26 States that have sued to set aside their participation. Judge said you don’t rule for injunctive relief from a law that is totally unconstitutional. So those States will likely go to Congress to demand compliance with the court finding; and go back to that judge for a contempt ruling, if Obamananstration fails to comply.
Failure to comply with such a court order is an impeachable offence.
“Texas Governor Rick Perry vowed to defy the EPA edict. Time to see if he’s going to honor his promise to Texas or not.”
Yeah, it will be fun to watch, if Texas ignores EPA and grants an operating permit without going through the BACT process for CO2 emissions. Civil war?
A major “harm” the administrations seems to either be ignorant of or not give a damned about is the affects the increased prices of electricity, natural gas and heating oil have on the poor and retired poor. Here in West Virginia we already have many families that cannot afford heat in the wintertime. And, we loose a noticeable number of them each winter, especially winters like this year and last. At least the healthy can still heat with fire wood, although we then loose several homes to fire each winter cased by wood stoves and fireplaces.
Well this should really, really really help boost employment, reduce the national deficit and enhance the recovery of the still fragile US economy.
Yes, excellent decision making by the Obama administration.
I agree zeroing out the EPA budget should be the first order of business in the efforts to cut the federal budget. It should be easy to show they are “non-essential workers” and provide no beneficial service to the people, and are in fact parasites that suck the life out of our economy. Move pollution control down to the local level where they are accountable to the public, and mandate that every regulation they have imposed have a sun set provision that it automatically expires in 5 years unless re-authorized by a vote of congress.
Larry
Somebody in the House GOP had better have the one pager instructing EPA it has no jurisdiction over GHG ready to vote on. Then let Dingy Harry and Veto Barry deal with their opposition.
http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
“Because the Only Good Progressive is a Failed Progressive”
Give us a few more years of cold eastern winters and the skepticism of voters where it counts may reach the tipping point. California is leading itself over the cliff. The rest of the country will get to see that self-destruction and learn from it.
Unfortunately, there is some mandatory compliance legislation coming from the feds regarding green energy. The more pain the feds inflict on the people, the stronger the reaction will be when they realize they’ve been duped.
People will get sick of paying 2x, 3x and even higher energy bills. All else being equal, people will push back. The only ‘hope’ for the feds is if joblessness stays high, more of us will be dependent on government programs and forced to support them.
In California, voters still like the nanny state. However, they are selfish little liberals. When the power went out and they became uncomfortable, the Gov. Gray Davis was recalled.
California politicians tried to blame our problems on Enron, but the power shortage was mainly due to their own policies. The CA ISO ensures the utilities are not operating independently. The politicians broke the system on purpose to use non-free market mechanisms in order to shape the system to their liking.
Enron is to blame for other reasons. Notably, Cap-and-Trade. Ken Lay needed a way to make Enron Wind profitable. Texas was suckered. Texans now pay 50% more for power since Texas invested in wind generation and produces more wind power than any other state.
Gov. Jerry Brown set up the Energy Commission around 1975. Since then it has done some good and a lot of damage. People have fought off some of the CECs efforts, like the Programmable Communicating Thermostat requirement (part of Smart Grid) in Title 24 building codes.
The CEC assumes energy consumption is inherently bad. It isn’t. But they need to demonize CO2 to ram through their agenda. It’s all about control. The CEC pays for ‘research’, like climate modeling to justify their regulations. We pay for those studies through a Public Goods Charge on power. It’s like being forced to purchase the rope they will hang you with.
The CEC couldn’t get the job done quickly enough. Looks like Jerry is back to finish off the state. The collapse of California might just save the rest of the country.
I guess that the only way to make certain that future occurrences will happen is to let them happen.
So, if the economy free-falls because of the EPA regulations then the court will be happy to reverse its findings of “speculative” and bring the deceased back to life!
What’s the point of having expert witnesses give their opinion as to any future when you can cite the “not certain but merely speculative” defence if you disagree with their views.
This isn’t law, this is dictatorship!
Seems like what is the rule of thumb here in good ole “fortress Europa”: Why not centralize everything by letting big daddy decide what’s best for everyone?
And people wonder why politicians are scared of direct democracy where apparent big issues for the people are decided directly by the people on any given issue on any given day. Of course in practice this would just mean going back to the good old days, so to speak, when the majority of local governments actually still had a say.
But the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said that the companies “have not shown that the harms they allege are ‘certain,’ rather than speculative.”
Well then, has the EPA shown that the harms they allege are ‘certain,’ rather than speculative?
Just wondering.
Dave in Canmore says:
January 31, 2011 at 4:10 pm
Regardless of what side of the science debate this judge may be on, it seems totally impossible to not see the “harms they allege.” In the meantime, Canadians will gladly sell you some extra electricity if regulations stall new power projects in the US.
Sell? HA! More like we’ll pay them to take it! Over the new year Ontario Power Generation paid Quebec and New York $1.5 million for our excess power. That’s right, we paid them to use our power. What a country!
Hoser says:
January 31, 2011 at 4:57 pm
People will get sick of paying 2x, 3x and even higher energy bills.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It has gone beyond than that. I work at a small electric utility. My job there is to implement “smart grid” technology. The cost of electricity has steadily risen since I’ve started work there, 5 years ago. We’re small, so on occasion, to help out, I’ll answer the ‘phones. Today, was one such day. I received a call from a confused elderly lady. She had failed to pay a bill last billing cycle and incurred a late fee. She paid it the other day, only to receive an overdue notice(and the accompanying late fee) for the current billing cycle. She didn’t understand how she could be paid up a few days ago, only to be overdue today. She didn’t understand why the cost keeps going up. By the crack in her voice, she did understand her choices. Tomorrow is forecast for a blizzard in this area. The next day the temps are suppose to get down to -10 F (-23 C). She paid the bill with a credit card. I know this lady. She is the wife of a retired preacher. His last church usually had the attendance of about 20, man, woman, and child. They’ve no money.
Beer just isn’t cutting it, tonight. They wonder why vitriol is interjected in the conversation? They are forcing choices that should never have to be made. Bastards.
Did anyone notice that on or about December 27, 2010, the Obama regime overturned the 1993 Bush limitations on the BLM. The BLM now has full jurisdiction on who can and can’t use the public lands they administer right down to who gets to ride/bike/hike/boat or anything else on public land. So EPA regulates the air you breath and BLM regulates everything else. Welcome to Obamaland. Can’t ride a horse on public land without a permit now. Great.
What would be exciting would be if the electricty and gas companies, on mass, just said “f… you”. Would the EPA have the balls to shut them all down ?
Larry:
“I agree zeroing out the EPA budget should be the first order of business in the efforts to cut the federal budget. It should be easy to show they are “non-essential workers” and provide no beneficial service to the people, and are in fact parasites that suck the life out of our economy.”
Look, I’m damn conservative, but you are going WAY too far here. EPA has done a LOT of good, but they have picked all the low-hanging fruit and are now getting stoooopid, in the never-ending saga of organizations trying to perpetuate and enhance themselves. They are now screwing around with issues that have a cost/benefit ratio that is infinitely large. Congress should simply freeze their budget at 2000 levels. If they take a sufficiently large hit, the employees will actually have to do something besides manage consultants!
Some things you can count on from Leftists-Liberals-Dems:
1. Overreach. Including Obamacare, the EPA CO2 endangerment ruling, and others.
2. A Tin Ear for the Public: Including failure to see that the public hates Obamacare and the failure to recognize public pain such as increasing energy costs and promises of huge increases for the non-reason of fighting climate change.
3. Lawyering: Going for the cheap and dirty win rather than well-considered laws that most can embrace.
Please add your own.
jae says:
January 31, 2011 at 6:15 pm
Larry:
“Look, I’m damn conservative, but you are going WAY too far here. EPA has done a LOT of good, but they have picked all the low-hanging fruit and are now getting stoooopid, in the never-ending saga of organizations trying to perpetuate and enhance themselves. They are now screwing around with issues that have a cost/benefit ratio that is infinitely large.”
That was then, this is now. Now EPA is run by “take no prisoners” Lisa Jackson who has not one clue about energy but is totally sensitive to the demands of Big Environment. The only way Republicans can leave EPA standing is to replace Lisa.
Andy G says:
January 31, 2011 at 5:58 pm
That would be something to see Andy.
And this is one of the major reasons I have turned my back on my life-long association with the Democratic Party (and I wasn’t just a borderline liberal, I was all the way left). The appointment of liberal judges lasts much longer than a presidential term. The damage is done and will hound our recovery for many, many years. I will never vote the Democratic ticket ever again. I only wish I had come to my senses before now.
What happens if Texas just refuses to go along? Would the Nat’l Guard ring the border looking outward? America has more to lose by excluding Texas than Texas does by losing America, in my opinion. Would the EPA start injunctions against any companies doing business with Texas companies? What if several other energy producing states sided with Texas and told the EPA to hang it in their ear? If the EPA lost the support of the governed could their whole house of cards come crashing down?
People who live in central Texas say that the nice thing about living there is the neighboring states; North Texas, South Texas, East Texas and West Texas. Don’t get me wrong, I am not from Texas. But I am a contrarian (that is why I am on this site) and it really waters me off when wrong-headed ideas are are able to be crammed down the throats of people who really do know better than the pointy-headed elitists who instill the rules to begin with. I am really hoping that Gov. Perry sticks to his guns and we end up with a constitutional crisis. It is time that some sanity prevails and we, as Americans, stop the self-immolation.
Here, this was just announced:
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jan2011/2011-01-31-091.html
Folks, this is some high-stakes poker! USEPA will use both the Clean Air AND Clean Water Acts in this fight, & they have a Supreme Court judgement on their side.
Interestingly, the power industry as a whole isn’t fighting this very hard. Oil & Gas are, however. Follow the money.
Andy G says:
January 31, 2011 at 5:58 pm
What would be exciting would be if the electricty and gas companies, on mass, just said “f… you”. Would the EPA have the balls to shut them all down ?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The big suppliers and generators have positioned themselves to spot where they advocate the actions of the EPA…………..
http://www.alstom.com/
http://www.duke-energy.com/
http://www.exeloncorp.com/
http://www.nexteraenergy.com/
http://www.nrgenergy.com/
http://www.pgecorp.com/
http://www.pnmresources.com/
All power companies. In partnership with other major global market players, they’ve come up with a position statement in regards to “climate change”.
This is their quote, “Welcome to the U.S. Climate Action Partnership (USCAP) Web Site
United States Climate Action Partnership (USCAP) is a group of businesses and leading environmental organizations that have come together to call on the federal government to quickly enact strong national legislation to require significant reductions of greenhouse gas emissions. USCAP has issued a landmark set of principles and recommendations to underscore the urgent need for a policy framework on climate change.”
http://www.us-cap.org/
The operative word there is “has”, they solved most of the problems they were created to attack and are like any organism looking for some other means to grow and gain power and influence.
Large bureaucracies always take on that “feed me!” approach when they run out of real problems to deal with.
They always have three prime directives.
1. survive at all costs
2. gain power and influence
3. grow if possible
The only way to control them is the same way your control your rose bushes, prune them back HARD and let them grow back.
Larry
Civil war somebody said? The officer core is mostly from the South and the Midwest. It would be a short war.
“corp” not “core”
Obama’s finger prints alone are on this one. Gasoline prices are already on the way up. Wait until this hits. He will try to shift the blame for higher energy costs but it will all be at his feet.
Is the Admin. and the EPA really that stupid?
Maybe so. I see a tangle of soaring prices and failed deliveries.
Think about it. Last time oil topped out, the consumer economy nearly shut down.
Now, with oil prices soaring due to the Egypt Panic, the Admin. wants to dump on the energy sector. Brilliant.
Only this time, the oil companies won’t be the bad guys, the Executive Branch and assorted minions will be.
This is scarier than a Doomsday novel, because they really do mean to go through with it.
I just wrote to Sen Barrasso (my Senator) and thanked him for the bill and all his hard work in the Senate. He has represented me exactly as I wish since he has been in office.
Wyoming ships about 400 million tons of coal annually, primarily to midwestern utilities. It is very clean, low ash low sulfur coal. Most utilities keep only a few weeks of coal reserved on their stockpiles. Should Wyoming and Texas jointly tell the EPA to hang it in their ear and Wyoming stop shipping coal to the midwest, how long would it take the midwest and east to brown out and black out from utilities shutting down? You can not make up 400 million tons from all the other producers in the U.S. Were Wyoming a country all its own it would be the fifth largest coal producing country in the world. I for one am damn proud of it!
Earth First! We’ll mine the rest later!
Even Obama’s foreign policies boost oil prices
And the push for bio fuels from Obama and the EU pushes food prices.
This is the core cause for the riots in Egypt.
As a next step Obama and the EU have turned their back’s on Mubarak practically eliminating the peace treaty with Israel and jeopardizing the control over one of the biggest and best equipped army’s in the M.E., thus further increasing M.E tensions resulting in a further rise of the oil price.
The UN, US and EU are run by crooks and a traitors.
“The Barrosso bill would repeal the endangerment finding, overriding the Supreme Court’s decision in Massachusetts v. EPA. The bill would bar the President and federal agencies from using the science, published by the National Academy of Sciences and others, on which the endangerment finding is based for policy, guidance, or regulations.”
Good luck with all of THAT!!
In British Columbia the government is following along with everything California is doing. Carbon tax, eletcricity rates increases big time to pay huge costly contracts to Independent Power producers and windpower. If you look into these companies they are run by friends of provincial government and ex managers of the electrical utility. The media for the most part overlook this as they are also in the pocket of the government.
These moves are not out of stupidity, rbateman. They know exactly what they are doing and the good of the people is not on their list of priorities.
Mark
Apparently, the US economic system and our Constitution are in the way of the new world order.
The damages to the companies are speculative?
How about the EPA’s findings about CO2 are not only speculative, but fraudulent and conspiratorial?
CRS, Dr.P.H. says:
January 31, 2011 at 8:44 pm
““The Barrosso bill would repeal the endangerment finding, overriding the Supreme Court’s decision in Massachusetts v. EPA. The bill would bar the President and federal agencies from using the science, published by the National Academy of Sciences and others, on which the endangerment finding is based for policy, guidance, or regulations.”
Good luck with all of THAT!!”
Sounds like they don’t like the idea of the legislature actually legislating – they want the court to concentrate that power in the hands of a few unaccountable people. Why do they even make the pretense of being democratic?
I also like their weaselly little wordplay; how they targeted only the “well-mixed” greenhouse gases nobody would have to point out that water vapor contributes far more to the “greenhouse effect” than the other gases they want to regulate. Even if people are stupid enough to outlaw that which they exhale they aren’t stupid enough (yet) to outlaw water vapor.
Meanwhile sen Kerry, rep Markey have ther hand out for heating oil relief for the ” coldest winter in living memory”
http://www.wickedlocal.com/somerville/news/x286169651/Kerry-Markey-announce-8-6M-in-heating-assistance-for-struggling-families
“rbateman says:
January 31, 2011 at 8:15 pm
R. de Haan says:
January 31, 2011 at 8:33 pm”
Egypt is not the only country in the ME in turmoil. I am sure we are all aware of Tunisia recently however, what hasn’t been reported too much are similar riots in Jordan. We here in Australia expect to see rises of 5-10% per litre of petrol as a direct result of the unrest because much oil from the region goes down the Suez Canal (Market “speculators” doing what they do best).
The whole region seems to be suffereing the jitters, even more so than usual, and is being dragged even further into an abyss. Obama is firmly rooted between a rock and a hard place. He can’t be seen to be, still, supporting Murbarak as well as supporting free, democratic, elections for the people (Who want Murbarak out).
James Sexton says:
January 31, 2011 at 5:42 pm
James, I’m on your side. Don’t tell anyone. I’m an elected official, I just play an idiot on blogs. I’m fighting for the little guy, doing everything I can. It’s hard. I see the garbage the state is pushing on everyone. What you describe is exactly what we have to remember is the reality behind the numbers like ‘median income’. There are people really hurting. The state isn’t helping. Instead it is pushing small agencies and districts over the edge with the apparent goal of usurping local rights. It’s too inconvenient to allow local control; everything should be centrally planned. Sound familiar? CCCP, tovarishch.
With ESP’s and scrubbers, combined with urea injection for Oxides of Nitrogen abatement, coal power IS clean power! Just say no to our carbon-starved atmosphere.
Long live the King!
The usual MSM misrepresentation:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=41411
@Honest ABE says:
January 31, 2011 at 9:40 pm
——-
Thanks for your response, TGL. I just try to be realistic on WUWT, as always.
USEPA is not the EA University CRU amateurs, they operate some of the best environmental labs on earth. Patiently & quietly, they’ve been building their case that greenhouse gases (carbon dioxide primarily) not only cause global warming, but also cause ocean acidification. Please see:
http://water.epa.gov/lawsregs/lawsguidance/cwa/tmdl/oa_memo_nov2010.cfm
The relationship between carbon dioxide and acidification is nearly a straight-line effect, unlike “warming,” which is all over the map. If Congress tries to defund EPA on this, they also have to go after the EPA on the water pollution control side (NPDES), RCRA and essentially everything else. Won’t happen.
BTW, I’ve been an environmental advisor to several GOP congressmen, one senator, one governor & one mayor of a large midwestern city. I know the game well, and the EPA came to a knife-fight with a .44 magnum. This game has barely begun.
@ James Sexton says:
January 31, 2011 at 5:42 pm
—–
You’re a good man, James! Is your customer dealing with this effect of smart grid billing?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us/14meters.html
I don’t think anyone at EPA or in the power industry really thought this out before they generally agreed to be regulated (you’ll not read much about that, sorry). Here’s what the power industry is facing for Best Available Control Technology:
http://www.epa.gov/nsr/ghgdocs/electricgeneration.pdf
“But the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said that the companies “have not shown that the harms they allege are ‘certain,’ rather than speculative.””
Why not reverse the logic, prove that AGW IS certain and not speculative. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty. There’s no proof that AGW is real, and until its proven there should be no new regulations!
But the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said that the companies “have not shown that the harms they allege are ‘certain,’ rather than speculative.” As this applies equally to the alleged harms of CO2 surely the onus should be on the EPA to prove the harm rather than the companies to prove the damage
CRS, Dr.P.H. says:
January 31, 2011 at 10:32 pm
“Patiently & quietly, they’ve been building their case that greenhouse gases (carbon dioxide primarily) not only cause global warming, but also cause ocean acidification. Please see:
http://water.epa.gov/lawsregs/lawsguidance/cwa/tmdl/oa_memo_nov2010.cfm”
I scanned through the report and sure enough they were regurgitating that coral reefs would be affected by ocean acidification. As far as I know the damage originally attributed to CO2 is better correlated with farm runoff and fishing activities.
This makes sense due to the fact that corals evolved when CO2 levels were much higher in the atmosphere – it is unlikely that corals would suddenly become so sensitive to a minor decrease in pH levels when the natural variability of pH within the oceans is so much greater than the decimal points they are worried about.
I have no reason to believe that any increase in CO2 due to fossil fuels will negatively affect ocean life in any significant way, but I have every reason to believe they’ll concoct voodoo science faster than it can be debunked in order to promote their political agenda.
Pamela Gray says:
January 31, 2011 at 6:44 pm
It’s okay, Pam. Better late than never to join the party of good sense. Lol!
As for the D.C. Circuit, more of the same nonsense. This is not a matter that should be left to the courts. The Republicans in Congress need to get on the stick immediately and defund any efforts to implement and enforce these regulations until they can amend the Clean Air Act to take away EPA’s authority to screw up our economy.
Jaye says on January 31, 2011 at 7:33 pm:
“Civil war somebody said? The officer core is mostly from the South and the Midwest. It would be a short war.”
Since the folks in Texas are heavily armed in particular with high-powered hunting rifles, any civil war would probably become long, drawn-out guerrilla warfare, which the military could never win because Texas is so big.
To make some extra cash, the drug cartels could make available weapons such as machine guns, rpg’s, grenades, explosives, mines and so forth.
Since Texas has numerous oil refineries, the state could shut these down and much of the country would come to a grinding halt due to the lack of transportation fuels.
Harold Pierce Jr says:
February 1, 2011 at 1:38 am
Jaye says on January 31, 2011 at 7:33 pm:
“Civil war somebody said? The officer core is mostly from the South and the Midwest. It would be a short war.”
Since the folks in Texas are heavily armed in particular with high-powered hunting rifles, any civil war would probably become long, drawn-out guerrilla warfare, which the military could never win because Texas is so big”
We really should not be talking like this…yet can you imagine the post-normal war us Kaliforians would bring to the table, really we could talk you to death and we could outlaw you guys winning, or anybody winning for that matter.
The court has obviously accepted that AGW is now the “null hypothesis”.
It is up to the defendant to show that AGW is is invalid or speculative.
Welcome to the decline and fall of the United States of America.
U.S. Senators Vow To Strip Obama Of His Climate Power:
http://www.thegwpf.org/international-news/2349-us-senators-vow-to-strip-obama-of-his-climate-power.html
CRS, Dr.P.H. says:
January 31, 2011 at 10:50 pm
@ James Sexton says:
January 31, 2011 at 5:42 pm
—–
“You’re a good man, James! Is your customer dealing with this effect of smart grid billing?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us/14meters.html ”
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Well, first of all, its been highly debated as to whether I’m a good man or not. Only my mother has been on the pro side of the debate! As to your link……….
The “smart meters” were, are and will be a thorn in the people’s side for many years to come. I’ve read the stories. Most of the people in the article you linked are in error. I’ve mentioned some of this in the past here, but it is only ancillary to the climate debate. First, while some electro-mechanical(EM) meters have been retrofitted with “modules” to get hourly reads, by in large, the smart meters don’t have rotating parts, they are solid state. What most experienced by an increase in recorded usage was expect and was a selling point to the utilities. The old EM meters had a life expectancy of 20 years to stay within 97% accuracy. After 20 years, the accuracy dropped off significantly…….. the gears wore down. When working, the solid state (SS) meters are much more accurate. The problem lays with other difficulties. It is said that the life expectancy is 10 years. This isn’t my experience, but it could be the manufacturing process has improved. But even still, that’s half of the life expectancy. The cost? EM meters…..about $25. SS meters…..about $200. (for the average 240 v residential kWh meter) Another selling point was that we’d no longer have to hire meter readers. (we never did, our membership was always self-read, with a system check every year) but that’s true, one doesn’t have to hire meter readers anymore. But they do have to hire a net admin. If their smart, a DB administrator, and a programmer, a skilled meter technician, and service technicians to handle the calls about high usage. The technology cost is enormous. Its funny, with the introduction of new information, everyone sees a need to do something with it. Care to guess why hourly reads are important? So we can charge you for using electricity during peak demand. You’re not going to use less, but we’re going to charge you more. Its called Time Of Use(TOU) billing. All of this has a very negligible effect on usage. But the cost that gets passed on, that’s where the difference is. I talked to a board member of a neighboring utility. I asked him when he expects the pay-off.(when the cost of the technology starts paying for itself.) He couldn’t answer.
But, we didn’t stop there. I’m much more concerned about the IEEE comm standard commonly known as Zigbee. All in home displays that I’m aware of come with Zigbee capabilities. This was sold under the pretense that the people were too stupid and lazy to walk to their meter and monitor their own use. We can do it for you and show you in the comfort of your house. Guess what your appliance manufacturers are now equipping your high energy use appliances with? You guessed it! Zigbee capabilities, with a soft switch integrated. We can today, regulate the use of peoples appliances. How long do you reckon before it is mandated? All of this occurs because of the self-imposed energy shortage due to an inordinate fear of a molecule.
I have seen many calls here to cut the EPA off either through funding cuts or dismantlement. As an environmental professional I can tell you that is a very bad idea. The EPA is incompetent, wasteful and mismanaged. However, it performs a vital function of preserving the environment. Industry, left to its own devices, will not adopt sound environmental policies. I make this statement from 20 years of experience cleaning up toxic sites. The EPA is broken. It needs to fixed, not destroyed.
“”””” jae says:
January 31, 2011 at 6:15 pm
Larry:
“I agree zeroing out the EPA budget should be the first order of business in the efforts to cut the federal budget. It should be easy to show they are “non-essential workers” and provide no beneficial service to the people, and are in fact parasites that suck the life out of our economy.”
Look, I’m damn conservative, but you are going WAY too far here. EPA has done a LOT of good, but they have picked all the low-hanging fruit and are now getting stoooopid, in the never-ending saga of organizations trying to perpetuate and enhance themselves. They are now screwing around with issues that have a cost/benefit ratio that is infinitely large.
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“I agree zeroing out the EPA budget should be the first order of business in the efforts to cut the federal budget. It should be easy to show they are “non-essential workers” and provide no beneficial service to the people, and are in fact parasites that suck the life out of our economy.”
Look, I’m damn conservative, but you are going WAY too far here. EPA has done a LOT of good, but they have picked all the low-hanging fruit and are now getting stoooopid, in the never-ending saga of organizations trying to perpetuate and enhance themselves. They are now screwing around with issues that have a cost/benefit ratio that is infinitely large. Congress should simply freeze their budget at 2000 levels. If they take a sufficiently large hit, the employees will actually have to do something besides manage consultants!
Well jae, it’s obvious from your own words, that you are not at all conservative.
“”””” Congress should simply freeze their budget at 2000 levels. If they take a sufficiently large hit, the employees will actually have to do something besides manage consultants! “””””
If you freeze the EPA budget at the 2000 levels; you are locking in forever expenditures on something the Constitution does not authorize the congress to spend any money on.
A conservative would know what the Constitution authorizes the Congress to raise taxes for (just three things), and the 18-20 things it authorizes them to do.
Obama tried that same BS in his SOTUA; freeze spending at current levels for the next five years. Well the current rate of spending is racking up Teradollar deficits; which are simply being printed. Freezing that insanity is not good for women and children; or old geezers either. Obama says he can dig his way out of the hole. Maybe; but you come out in China. Sane people stop digging. (conservatives too).
“”””” Russell Duke says:
February 1, 2011 at 6:48 am
I have seen many calls here to cut the EPA off either through funding cuts or dismantlement. As an environmental professional I can tell you that is a very bad idea. The EPA is incompetent, wasteful and mismanaged. However, it performs a vital function of preserving the environment. Industry, left to its own devices, will not adopt sound environmental policies. I make this statement from 20 years of experience cleaning up toxic sites. The EPA is broken. It needs to fixed, not destroyed. “””””
“”””” However, it performs a vital function of preserving the environment. “””””
So Russell, I agree with you completely; so let’s fix it.
Step #1 Eliminate, abolish, cancel, negate, and in every other way dismember every single environmental regulation ever promulgated by the EPA.
Step #2 Have the LEGITIMATE Legislative body in this country; aka the United States Congress, make whatever laws are “necessary and appropriate” to carry out the powers delegated to that Congress in Article I Secion 8 of the US Constitution.
We the People, have never authorized the Congress to reassign the legislative powers we gave them; to unelectred third parties; aka the EPA.
wayne says:
January 31, 2011 at 3:28 pm
“…climate scientology”.
Love it!!!!
George E. Smith says:
February 1, 2011 at 8:34 am
George
Let’s think this through. You want the same group that passed a law prohibiting the use of incandescent light bulbs to pass more laws about protecting the environment? The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is the vehicle that allows industry (and everything else in this country) to be regulated. Maybe we should start by revamping the process by which the CFR is written and amended. Not all of the rules found in the CFR are bad rules. So to scrap the whole thing seems careless.
RDuke
Russell Duke says:
February 1, 2011 at 9:55 am
Whether you like it or not, that is their Constitutionally mandated job, not the EPA’s. As I recall, there have been no Constitutional amendments authorizing the branches of government to legislate their authority away.
Mark
Mark T says:
February 1, 2011 at 10:08 am
Good point. I guess high quality public education is our last… aw, never mind.
Sucks, I agree, but it is what we are supposed to have (not really what we have, since they legislate away all of their responsibilities.)
Mark
Too bad the court didn’t take into consideration of WG III Co-Chair Ottmar Edenhofer’s statement
“But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole. ”
Makes the EPA a tool of the environmentalists.
CRS, Dr.P.H. says:
January 31, 2011 at 10:32 pm
USEPA is not the EA University CRU amateurs, they operate some of the best environmental labs on earth.
Which has lead to:
20x miscalulation of soot – http://www.freedomworks.org/press-releases/epa-overestimates-health-risk-by-factor-of-15
Second hand smoke – http://www.davehitt.com/facts/epa.html
Vermiculite Attic Insulation – http://www.schundler.com/atticinsulation.htm
NOx – http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yy-JuWswGSEJ:www.nerc.com/files/NOxStudy.pdf+EPA+study+errors&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShuHh1QR8dSvPkV4gJ2SarCuu6fSaQCsLx9OZ5ks2jYqmPGpx8FCvMuZ9QR20_W8-C8m2ReBuo0cPNfJSqlRg2mZNZ_2aq8D8HT1JPduVnjONZOvZNDeEjcYcvexeCUrAgVBfqV&sig=AHIEtbQEs9EFoYUgsNKDa8dOYLTEzb5PIQ
ground-level ozone (smog) – http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/32250
Lead levels – http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2007/03/flip-flopping-headlines-part-two.html
Plus many more. What leads you to believe they are competent?
James Sexton and Kevin Quitberg,
I work for the largest power gen in the USA. I spent a few years at a lignite burner and now work at a 2 unit nat gas burner.
The lignite (flammable dirt) unit has ESP with ammonia inj. and natural oxidation FGD (recently converted the operation from inhibited oxidation due to fuel quality changes). The gas burner units are a contrast of technology. The old unit (50 YO) is a boiler type, still very profitable to operate due to simplicity and quality original construction especially when the fuel price is $4.35/MBtu. The new unit is cutting edge in technology and efficiency (~ 60% heat to electricity I’m told).
One of the most amazing things to me when I first entered that lignite unit was the fact that when looking at the overall superstructure – 2/3 of the unit was (to quote Moon Grafant) “a 30 pound tick on a 20 pound dog”. Two-thirds of the unit was pollution control. ESP – electrostatic precipitator: folks this is why you don’t get ash raining down all over the countryside anymore. NOX control: urea or ammonia injection (same principle) aids in controling nitrous oxide emissions. FGD: acid rain control with limestone, instead of sulfur dioxide, you get CO2 and calcium sulfate or calcium sulfite (and a maintenance nightmare).
Long story short: The lignite burner can generate a nominal 700 MW/h, but before it even hits distribution it sucks off about 43 to 47 MW to operate all equipment within the plant. In no way do I advocate removing or reducing the pollution controls in that plant, though the agrarian in me thinks the poor soil of the countryside would benefit from some ashfall. But, adding such additional equipment as mercury control (powdered activated carbon injection into the flue gas before the ESP), some sort of CO2 control (our current project up north takes ~50MW for the trial demo only), and who know’s what comes next? Before long you’re sucking 100+MW off your salable generation while increasing staffing or OT to the staff you have. Many generation units already have maintenance crews stretched by OT to the point that 20+ year veterans of the crews leave. It takes 5 years to get these men trained if they come to us out of tech school or college. Rarely, do we take a green high school grad anymore except to wax floors and empty trash cans, but if they are full time we’ll pay for them to get schooling to move up…
I lurk here day after day, gleaning info that is generally clear of the trolling. There are others that work for this company that enjoy this site as well. Your links to peer review data help.
I like to think the reason many of the power companies, as stated earlier, get into the green side is 1) keeping the enemies closer than their friends 2) it is simply a wiser business choice to not get blindsided by what comes from a very dynamic regulatory climate.
Politics is driving this. Politics will end it.
Senators vow to strip Obama climate power
Eleven Republican senators introduced a bill that would stop the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating greenhouse gases, which scientists blame for global warming, without explicit approval by Congress.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.ddc0305146893ec9e9e6796d743e6af7.d91&show_article=1
George E. Smith says:
February 1, 2011 at 8:34 am
We the People, have never authorized the Congress to reassign the legislative powers we gave them; to unelectred third parties; aka the EPA.
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REPLY: Bullcr*p!
From Wikipedia:
“On July 9, 1970, citing rising concerns over environmental protection and conservation, President Richard Nixon transmitted Reorganization Plan No. 3 to the United States Congress by executive order, creating the EPA as a single, independent agency from a number of smaller arms of different federal agencies. Prior to the establishment of the EPA, the federal government was not structured to comprehensively regulate environmental pollutants.”
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Summary: We the People did EXACTLY that, through our elected officials!!
The USEPA is why we can drink tap water anyplace in the USA vs. places like China, where you cannot. The value of the EPA cannot be disputed, they have done marvelous things.
Regarding the GHG stuff, all I’m saying is that the EPA have been assembling scientific data & applying their powers. It’s political, the EPA under Pres. George W. Bush was not pushing enforcement to the extent they are now, but W. still did some good things with his “Clear Skies” initiative. See: http://www.epa.gov/clearskies/
Interestingly, the big power utilities are more or less “OK” with carbon dioxide mitigation, and auto companies aren’t complaining too much since folks are gravitating towards higher-efficiency autos (not necessarily hybrid/electric, but better engines with Direct Fuel Injection etc.).
Utilities get credit for all sorts of efficiency upgrades & switching over to natural gas, so the coal industry & their politicos are crying foul. Follow the money (and union jobs). As the US power industry switches to abundant natural gas, the Clear Sky objectives become met (especially mercury), coal consumption falls, and carbon dioxide emissions slip downwards towards the 17% reduction Obama promised at COP 15 in Copenhagen.
Unfortunately, those 11 senators cannot even get past their own body (the Senate) with a positive outcome, let alone the President himself. Right now such measures are nothing more than sabre rattling. It will take voting the dictator in chief out of office before anything can be done about the EPA.
Mark
The EPA was always meant to rule America…
Yes they started small, PROGRESSIVELY building precedents…
The EPA was never run by the American Government… you just think they are..
In China, families are charged for the cost of the bullet used to execute their fathers, brothers or wtahever. Sounds a bit like being asked to pay for the hangman’s rope, as somebody remarked earlier.
Hello PRD:
The utility just East of us was planning another generating unit, a big one at 750 Megawatts, and then canceled it in favor of windmills. They have now installed a 450 Megawatt series of fields. They said that as long as that is what people want and they get their 12% annual return (via higher rates and taxpayer subsidies) they will continue to install wind turbines. This infuriates me, as we get a double hit: increased utility bills and increased taxes. My brother is the AO of one of the 4 existing 550 Megawatt units and he has told me that it is very difficult for them to cycle their boilers and gen. sets up and down to match the vagaries of the wind. It is also introducing a lot of inefficiencies into the boiler firing as they have to leave their most efficient pressures.
In an unrelated but still related area, we are having trouble with the state at the mine where I am employed. We have massive out-gassing of methane from the UG mine, and have devised a way to put a pump on a borehole and pull gas (~2 million cubic feet/day) from the mine and use the methane to generate heat in our process. For 28 years we have vented the methane to atmosphere with the mine ventilation system. It has been a nightmare to get this permitted through the BLM and the state. Anadarko owns some of the gas in a ‘split-estate’ lease and we will pay them royalties for their share of the gas. The 40% of the gas which has been determined to come from state leases, however, is another story altogether. We offered to pay the state the going rate for the BTU value of the gas but no deal! They said we are only permitted to vent the gas and we are not allowed to burn it! So, here it is: state…we would like to give you some money and burn this gas. State to us: no you can’t burn it, you can only throw it away and we don’t want your money. We have retained legal counsel to try to find a way to pay the state some more money.
This explains one of the many rationales I have which makes my distaste for gov’t. palpable. It is why I am a contrarian and why I approach almost every dilemma with a ‘correlation is not necessarily causation’ attitude. It drives my wife a little nuts as she has a much more benevolent attitude toward people than do I. I have just been in industry/gov’t. relationships too long. Must be time to hang up my spurs and go fishing.