Germany's Greens get ugly with climate skeptics

Well at least this time we can be sure that any future solar-powered panzers or tigers wont work at night very well.

A modest proposal for BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN – perhaps all ‘deniers’ should be made to wear a symbol of some type. Perhaps a star?

Is the German Government aware of a scientifically published paper that has been subjected to peer review that questions climate change caused by man, and that is supported by scientific data?

It never ceases to amaze me how this myth has been spread,
800 Peer-Reviewed Papers Supporting Skepticism of “Man-Made” Global Warming (AGW) Alarm

Has the German gov’t picked out a symbol that AGW skeptics will have to display on their clothing in public yet?

Poptech says:
November 11, 2010 at 9:09 am
Dr. Singer’s scientific credentials are impeccable
*************
So what ? Does that make him right ?
He is an ideologue
There are five attributes of ideologues:
1. Absence of doubt
2. Intolerance of debate
3. Appeal to authority
4. A desire to convince others of the ideological “truth”
5. A willingness to punish those that don’t concur
Note that each of these characteristics is anathema to science.
Expecting good science from ideologues is a futile.

Is this significantly different then what we have heard and will continue to hear from any extreme on any subject. Remember the tradition of intolerance for difference runs deep, very deep in the culture of all European societies. We in the US and Canada need to remind ourselves that our culture and society is of European roots.

AndiC @ 8:55.
The characteristics you fear are not unique to Germans, but are to humans.
==============

ZT says:
November 11, 2010 at 8:54 am
I wonder what Angela Merkel, with a PhD in physics, would make of the creative details of principle component analysis as practiced by Mann et al!
———————-
She was the first one I heard to pronounce that they, our God-like leaders, would restrict the global temperature rise to 2 degrees, as if they have some great big “climatometer” with a big dial on the front (in addition to being in control of the Chinese and Indian emissions). I’m not sure that the Ph.D. in Physics is helping much.
Also, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_said_Those_who_ignore_history_are_bound_to_repeat_it
These people would be well served by reading the Wikipedia entry for Joseph Goebbels. Warning: I found it to be a stomach-churning read at the end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

Welcome to the European Union. Those of us who monitor the machinations of the EU will be familiar with this sort of intimidation and oppression. Only yesterday, the EU’s Silent Assassin, otherwise known as Council President Herman Van Rompuy made the following comments in a speech in Berlin:
“We have together to fight the danger of a new Euro-scepticism.
This is no longer the monopoly of a few countries.
In every Member State, there are people who believe their country can survive alone in the globalised world.
It is more than an illusion: it is a lie!
The time of the homogeneous nation-state is over.”
These people are hell bent on creating a federal, undemocratic Europe and will stoop to anything to make it happen. Calling people Liars or Deniers is now standard practice in the EU so this story comes as no surprise whatsoever. The EU throw vast amounts of money at Climate Change projects around the world and would surely back these extremists in branding free thinkers as dangerous.
Anthony, there could be no better day to post this in order to put things in perspective. Millions of brave people have made the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom only for power crazed, self interested politicians to try to take it away from us. They need to be held to account for their disgraceful actions.

I clicked the “Branding of Dissenters has Begun” link, then, at the bottom of that piece clicked the “Read here” link that leads on to more of the story and includes Ms Dotts Parliamentary email address, so I sent a message of support. If others follow that and send their own messages, (espcially German-speakers, unlike me), I’m sure the lady would appreciate it.

Germany is famous for not accepting dissent.

“Shtalker, this is KAOS. We don’t allow deniers here!”

Hmmmm….okay, so germany needs
– A Secret Police for keeping track of Deniers….let me see …hmm…
Geheime Clima Polizei ? ( GeCliPo )
Geheime Grun Polizei ? ( GeGruPo )
-A way to reckognise the Denier….hmmmm….. A Tatoo on the arm which tell you
what number you have on the Black List? Like… D 111222 (Denier number 111222)
And maybe a yellow patch on the chest with a black Coal piece on it ? Easy to spot.
-There might be neccessary to have some Camps for re-programming of the Deniers.
Some doctors will be needed for injections of certain drugs. Maybe the deniers can
work while in camp? Uranium mines?
-May I suggest a new Jugend organisation ? Die Grune Jugend. You can easily recruit guards for the camps when they are indoctrinaded as young ones.

WOW, just WOW. Reading this right after saying what I did in a post on the Armistice Day thread is chilling.
The evil of WWI is not dead, its just in hiding … or was 🙁

The Green Party is very strong in Germany (as well as other EU countries, Brazil, Colombia, Australia and New Zealand). They are hard core collectivists, anti-industrial, anti-capitalism, pro-environmental fascism. This is very typical of them. With the Greens, you not only do not get a toy with the Happy Meal, you do not get the Happy or the Meal.

It is sickening that German politicians use their parliamentary powers to brandmark publicly those whose opinion is not in lockstep with theirs.
I applaud Anthony and P.Gosselin and Lubos Motl to blog about this on this day where we remember those who died for freedom – fighting those Germans twice in the last century.
Will they never learn?

No doubt Angela Merkel is a politician. I am just noting that her scientific background and training make it unlikely that she’ll be fooled into reading too much into sloppy-PCA derived ‘Hockey Sticks’.
I hope that an enterprising journalist, or opposition politician, will take the time to ask her if she has personally reviewed the statistical ‘analysis’ underlying the Hockey Stick. This would be illuminating for the German electorate.

Obviously as they’re losing the debate, the more extreme elements will come out with more and more outlandish and ridiculous statements. I find it all rather entertaining.

I think a letter sent to the Germany goverment in the same lines as Matt Ridley’s reply to David MacKay signed by as many of the people affected would be best.
Nothing helps more when people are screaming and yelling than resonably explaining why you think they are incorrect in a level voice.
This is one where you just have to wait for the German goverments response.

JB, exactly what persecution are you referring to? Investigation of scientific error is not necessarily persecution (although I’m sure Mann feels it is). McIntyre and McKittrick have been polite and courteous, while being thorough and unrelenting in exposing the inaccuracies of Mann’s work.
Investigation of Michael Mann has been directly specifically at particular pieces of his work; the German government is attempting to suppress debate and research in a broad area by a substantial number of people. Do not conflate the two in your attempted tu quoque.

nice try with the Mann comparison, but it won’t watch. Mann is accused of deliberately inventing data so he could scam public funds to keep his own career going.
In more direct words, Mann is being investigated not because of his opinions, but because there is a credible allegation that he is nothing more than a con artist and a thief who is responsible for the misallocation of millions of dollars worth of public funds.

Quite understandable in Germany where the green movement was born and reinforced by Rudolf’s Steiner “Anthroposophy” there. However it is inexplicable among those who specially suffered the consequences of this movement in the 20th century and now fund and subscribe totally to it. A kind of Copenhagen syndrome?

Germans can’t take too much CO2. Their beer is some of the bestest in the Welt but it has very high levels of CO2. I can atest to both from personal experience. Too much CO2 makes Germans hot. It’s time to close every brewery in the country or it will be only a matter of time before we’re off again to North Africa, Sicily, Italy, and Normandy (not to mention what the Russians are going to do to them). Gott in Himmel! Was is loss? Der Hund ist loss!

Yes PAt, the Green party is quite strong in Germany….But I think that they are not as strong as they were a few years ago. Here in Belgium, the greens are qui strong too, but they do not expand further than their historical score about 10 years ago. I think that in many european countries, they are in fact receeding and will stabilize around an equilibrium of 10%….in the countries where they do not dislocate in self-fighting fractions. This is their natural place, given that you can count on at least 10% of people beeing collectivist. What happened was they got the vote of people being concerned by environment (preservation of endangered species, reducing pollution,…) without beeing collectivist….but a few taxes later, the green movement is starting to show his ugly head. A few more scandals (CAGW will do nicely, we just need 1 or 2 cold winters) and they should be in real trouble.
Only in the northern Europe (Norway, sweeden,…) could they really get power. Thoe countries are already deep in a collectivist nanny state trip, much broader that the greens.

Not surprising, the Germans, as I recall, had the first Green Party with any real clout going way back into the early 80s. Germans, for all their admirable features and contributions, are extremely xenophobic, culturally and ideologically, and have been even before there was a Germany to speak of. Neo-Nazism has been simmering just below the surface since VE day and the mentality is just looking for any form of expression. First quell dissent, identify dissidents, remove them from public life. Harangue your neighbors to conform and capitulate. If that doesn’t work send the GG Panzer Divisions into Poland to force change.
[ you do realize that if you said such things about some other racial groupings you would be accused of racism don’t you? . . mod]

Peter Miller says:
November 11, 2010 at 10:21 am
There is a very dark joke about it: ” This time kilns will be of the microwave kind” . Another reason to make impossible to understand why those who suffered the consequences are the bigger supporters of the “ecological/green/GWR” movement all around the world. It would finish in a second if not being extensively funded by known people and their banks. Think it over guys!

S Basinger says:
November 11, 2010 at 8:52 am
“A modest proposal for BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN – perhaps all ‘deniers’ should be made to wear a symbol of some type. Perhaps a star?”
I think, more appropriately, a sun. I’ll proudly wear one.

Funny: One German is one German, two Germans are two Germans….Three Germans is an Army! 🙂

I think a letter sent to the Germany Goverment, like Matt Ridley’s to David MacKay, in reply to what best can be described as a demand that the German goverment silence all ‘Deniers’, would be best to deal with this situation.
Although I don’t hold much hope for David MacKay in the UK as the UK goverment has show with Prof. David Nutt what happens to scientists with a diffrent opinion to the goverment line.
The best way to deal with yellers and screamers is to point out the reason you believe they are worng in a level and calm voice, although this may lead to louder yelling and screaming.

The Germans are being consistent.
The Germans, in their zeal to stomp out anything Nazi, have passed laws that essentially make it illegal to deny the holocaust. In Germany, deniers are therefore illegal.
My question is this: (I really don’t know the answer.) Is there any evidence that making something a thought crime has any positive effect? Is there any evidence that Germany, in particular, is a more tolerant place because of these laws?
What I have observed is that people, who are absolutely convinced that they are absolutely correct morally, usually aren’t. You have fifteen seconds to think of a dozen examples where that has caused unspeakable evil: you can start with the holocaust.

Wie die Geschichte wiederholt es sich selbst

[ you do realize that if you said such things about some other racial groupings you would be accused of racism don’t you? . . mod]

I think of Germany as a political grouping with a rich cultural heritage and a long history within Europe… that is all.
Europeans have a long history of interbreeding… with a bit of rape and pillage thrown in for good measure from assorted marauding hordes… about as pure as a bag of jelly beans… but please correct me if I am wrong.

You don’t know that you have already LOST THE GAME: Every US company, if it wants to sell its products, as any in the world, has to comply with the Brussels’ International Standards Organization; remember ISO 9000, ISO 9001, ISO 14000 and the like?: You signed them buddies! The American ASTM was trashed long ago.
I don’t know if you have signed a Free Trade Agreement with the EU, but if you have…you are done also: It is not signed without signing the “Association Clause”, which is a binding agreement that you will obey their rules.
You will have to revise EVERY binding agreement you have signed with the United Nations, as these were concocted and intended for the “Global Governance”….Now, if you do not think as you are supposed to by THEIR rules you risk to be anathematized for ever. “Wake up O’ little Susie!”…..you are not virgin anymore 🙂

@Krishna Gans – According to Jaqnzen’s biography of Hitler, the reason that the brown shirts were brown was that he was able to pick up lots of them quite cheap on the surplus market after WW 1. They could have just as easily been gangrene green, black or some other color. In any case, he liquidated them in 1934 after they served their purpose for him.

If we continue the parallel with WW2, is the AGW war now at the same stage as WW2 was in 1943? That is, the turning point! That crucial period when it became clear that the Axis Powers (the warmists) were losing and the Allies (the scientists) were winning.
Just as the Italians changed sides and overthrew their fascist leaders, how soon will we see prominent warmists defecting to the Allies.

Funnily it began long ago, with an square triangle, where the square angle measured not the 90 degrees we all know but 100 degrees. This is called the International System of Measures. Its purpose: To make impossible to realize what laws govern nature and being blessed with Holy Ignorance (“Agnosticism”) you could be much more easily controlled: Shortly: A Good and Conscious Kid, a good believer in Green philosophy, etc.,etc. a ‘FREE” thinker and not a troublesome American “Cowboy”who, worst of all, it’s a hell of God’s believer, thus you will be a Gay citizen, willfully accepting non reproductive practices, birth control, and niceties like that…….Now: “Just smile…though your heart is aching” 🙂

Great that you give it exposure, Anthony.
Our German Greens are absolutely outraged that any politician in Germany could have the nerve to dare to *listen* to a scientist with a non-consensus opinion. Can’t have that, no.
I hope they get exposed as the zealots they are. They need to be kept in check.
Here is the website of their youth organization. Behold the raised fist.
http://www.gruene-jugend.de/

Malaga View says:
November 11, 2010 at 11:03 am
“As they say: May You Live In Interesting Times in Germany.
German people in unprecedented rebellion against government: 1000 injured in protests in nuclear protests: police at breaking point”
The Greens counted everyone who got a little bit of tear gas as injured. Our police treats them as if they were celebrities. Pure propaganda.

I am not going to defend the Germans. They are .. I cannot explain this in a few words.
HOWEVER, please consider:
1. These are opposition MPs. The political theatre, in lack of a better term, consists of the government boasting and the opposition complaining. These Anfragen are a dime a dozen. Nothing much comes out of it. They are usually complaints clothed in rhetorical questions, and usually the answer is, we are not aware and everything is A-OK.
2. I think you are too hard on the MPs. In their minds, climate sceptics are pseudo-scientists. Imagine your government inviting homoeopaths and wizards, would you not speak up on that? (Incidentally, “alternative” medicine is quite en vogue with the greenish voters..)

Anthony Watts wrote:
“The seeds of tyranny appear to be taking hold again in the German government at least when it comes to climate change issues. – Anthony”
I guess Anthony doesn’t know much about German politics. He seems to think the Green Party is running the German government. As far as I know, the ruling party is CDP under Angela Merkel.
I think that part of the post needs to be corrected.
REPLY: You have NO IDEA WHAT I THINK. – take a timeout, pretty much fed up with you. – Anthony

The American reader might think that this is an official statement of the German government. It is not.
The Greens are an opposition party in the German Bundestag. Opposition parties are supposed to produce queries like this, to highlight their differences with the parties in power. The appropriate Cabinet minister is then supposed to respond to the query, in a manner that makes the opposition look silly and misinformed. Which in this case will be easy.
Politics as usual it seems. No need to bring up ugly ghosts from the past. This from a Scandinavian point of view, would like to hear what Germans themselves think. Anyone?

Just as an example over 20% of the German electorate voted for what could be called extremest parties in 2009, making considerable gains.
“The Left” – Basically Communists – 11.1%
“the Greens” 9.2%
Various Dodgey Far Left Groups. 0.3%
and the New nazis
The NDP- 1.8%. Small, but still nearly 1 in 50 voters with some strong local showings.
So nealry 1/4 Germans can be considered to hold extremist political views, at least for the eyes of Americans and British Commonwealth folk.
Any German folk on the list please let me know if my definition of these groups is unfair.

A group of politicians grandstanding and acting like jackasses is no reason to denounce Germany. There is plenty of that in America. Remember Boxer wanting to throw people in jail over Climategate?
If they act, that is different. For now paying attention is enough. The German people are not the problem. It was not the German Army that comitted the great atrocities. It is always the small group that tries to control the people that is the problem.

netdr2
Thanks for that apology. Really appreciated. I now take back what I said too. So unlike what one ever gets from the Team.

FWIW, I got my own doctoral degree in Germany, and I worked with a guy with a PhD (Dr.rer.nat) in physics from Leipzig who had been a close colleague of Angela Merkel’s before she got into politics. Her specialization is quantum chemistry and, according to him, she is very good – and having been raised in East Germany, one might expect that – like Vaclav Klaus – she would know to be wary of this kind of official thinking and suppression of dissent. However, she is also a cunning politician who, from being Helmut Kohl’s token Eastern Germany female cabinet member, managed to succeeed him as party leader. She did go along with the nonsense about “not allowing the temperature in 100 years to get more than 2 degrees higher” statement. It’s impossible to know what her private views may be. Some time ago, many German skeptics sent her a letter – Marc Morano published a translation here:
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2282/Consensus-Takes-Another-Hit-More-than-60-German-Scientists-Dissent-Over-Global-Warming-Claims-Call-Climate-Fears-Pseudo-Religion-Urge-Chancellor-to-reconsider-views
Whatever her personal views are, her problem is political. She managed – barely – to defeat Gerhard Schroeder’s SPD/Green coalition in 2005, so she probably can’t afford to be “out-greened” too much. That coalition had been elected with a promise to phase out nuclar power – something that Merkel has quietly slowed down.
Having said that – the main reason for the popularity of the Green Party, at the time, was the personal charisma (as some people would call it) of its then leader, Joschka Fischer. Renate Kuenast, who signed the letter posted here, was broadly seen as a loon. Without Fischer, who was a much wilier politician, hopefully they will shoot themselves in the foot.

Soooooo the zealous German Parliamentarians have issued a fatwa against anyone questioning the absolute truth of Man Made Global Warming, eh? Can Jihad be far behind? If I used the UN-IPCC report to clean my toilet, will they send out their jihadi assassins to murder me?
Sir Isaac Newton, we grasp your travails with historical clarity now….

The seeds of tyranny appear to be taking hold again in the German government at least when it comes to climate change issues
Shouldn’t that be parliament, not government?

I wonder what they would call Martin Luther had he been nailing his thoughts on the Church door in the 21st century.

Let’s not be so hasty in our condemnation of the Germans as a group. Take a look around here in the good old US of A (and other countries) at how “deniers” are treated. We are just more sneaky about how we go about it. See any grants ($$) out there to disprove AGW? “Settled science”? EPA going after carbon? “An Inconvenient Truth” wins awards? Algore wins awards? Many scientists fear being called a “denier”. ETC.
In typical German style, they take the ball and run with it, straight ahead, three yards and a cloud of dust. At least you know where they stand. A little R&R might be at work here, maybe, ie Rigidity and Rules. A German stereotype. I have, however, found that stereotypes are generally true of large groups of the same types (cultures, races) of people; of individuals, not so much. But then I have also noticed that it seems to be OK to be racist when it comes to picking on the Germans. Movies, recently, seem to like to depict the bad guys as as being right wing, facists or Germans (Die Hard 1,2,3…). And, no, I am not German.
All of those invested heavily in AGW, be it money or reputation, seem to be willing to throw others under the bus, not just the Germans.

..according to my calendar, it’s about time for Germany to invade France again.
Happy Veteran’s Day, thanks for keeping up the fight for truth, Anthony!!

Nudge, shove, shoot. The ways of past tyranny die hard, don’t they.

D. King says:
November 11, 2010 at 12:21 pm

I wonder if it would trouble them to know
that Fred Singer has surpassed the Corona
guy as: “The most interesting man alive?”

Partial credit for naming another Mexican beer but it’s Dos Equis not Corona.

Gagging free speech and people’s right to opine will only result in a revolt that grows larger than it was originally.
When “the few” get stopped in their tracks and made to “shut up”, the masses gather and grow to fight back… whether they agree with “the few” or not.
These futile attempts to end the debate will only feed the fire.
/psychology 101

It is not (very) unfair, just … it’s like explaining a pocket calculator as a “very fast abacus”.
The political coordinate systems are pretty much different.
For instance, all parties, except maybe the lunatic F.D.P. fringe, are in favor of socialized health care, and other things. There are minor quarrels about how much more taxes should be raised for this, and how far the benefits should be reduced.
You can certainly read up on that on your own.
I am not overly concerned with what the fringe is babbling (BTW, the “Nazis” are basically secret service honeypots), I am concerned about how it goes without saying that the government will push through what the fringe only talks about. For instance, gender mainstreaming is official CDU policy, as is climate change, and consider how a member of the ruling coalition was treated when she listened to some “deniers”.

Dan J says:
“The Greens are an opposition party in the German Bundestag. Opposition parties are supposed to produce queries like this, to highlight their differences with the parties in power.”
Plain wrong! No appeasement politics this time.
The Greens obviously “are …” NOT “… supposed to produce queries like this”.
There is so much poorly hidden advocacy and infamousness shining up behind these questions that they wether should be ignored nor be accepted.
Do you really think or are you just trying to make us believe that the official speakers of the German Greens ignore the scientific debate on the climate issue?
“No need to bring up ugly ghosts from the past”
YUP. Let’s start with the inapproriate use of the term “Denier” or its german equivalent “Klimaleugner” (climate liar) an absolutely thoughtless and perfidious derivation of the word “Holocaust-Leugner”.
No need for translating this one, I suppose.
Besides that we may point out the sheer stupidity of the failed connotation: do you know someone contradicting the existence of a phenomenon called climate?

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
– Mohandas Gandhi

Which stage are we at now?

Richard S Courtney says:
November 11, 2010 at 2:02 pm
It saddens me almost to tears that on Armistice Day I read the attacks on Fred because of his views and the insults to Germans because they are German.
——————
I agree entirely, Richard. As some one else commented in this thread, the inclination to totalitarianism is found in every culture, not just Germany. We’re seeing it here in Canada, too, as people are afraid to say what they think on several major issues that are confronting our society. Political correctness and the name-calling and labelling that go with it have silenced the vigorous debate that is necessary for democracy. Unfortunately, this trend is most pronounced in our universities.

Grow up folks. German officials have every right to ask if public funds are being used to support U.S. oil company front groups. Now not all deniers are funded by industry and there a handful of genuine skeptics. But the parliament members are asking about a group that is a front group for industry.
This is certainly nothing compared to what the Virginia Attorney General has tired to do.

I am not a politician, but indeed a German, I am not connected to the so colled ‘green’ lobby organisations. Despite the fact that I avoided buying a car, since I do live in an urban agglomaration, I do not recall ever having done something specific that you could call ecology-minded. Just to make this clear I am not a tree hugger.
If you a relly considering Fred Singer a relible scientist, and his work empiric I can just commiserate with you.
Despite his vita, he is also know for very controverse positions including:
– denial of existance on a connection between passive smoking and lung cancer
– denial of existance on a connection of CFC emission and influence on the ozone layer
It is well known that he contributed to several studies, that were directly or inderectly commissioned by Exxon and the API, especially the ones that were designed to implicate a major dissence between climate researchers concerning the urge for immediate action.
Guys like him claimed and are claiming, that there is no climate change and that there is no increase of the temperatures, at all.
Now he revises his position, claiming that the climate change is not anthropomorphic phenomenon but a periodic recurring event, similar to the different changes between ice and warm ages.
Only with my limited knowledge and of course with some research that I have done before posting this comment, I can just say the following:
Considering Fred Singer and his researches reliable, or even considering him a scientist at all is ridiculous.
But to construct a connection between the openly expressed suspicion of parts of the German parliament to economic lobbyists, to who Singer belongs, and the Nazis whose devastating, murderous and rogue reign resulted in genocide and a world-wide military conflict… well, that is just a testimony of ignorance.
Please do not misunderstand me, I do not feel insulted if Tom, Dick or Harry are trying to end up disussions with Germans with Nazi- or Communist compromises, once they are running out of arguments. I just think to simplify things to an absurd level, especially if we are upset is natural for most of us.
But pardon me to say this, … your pathos is causing me to laugh out loud 😀

Peter Miller says:
November 11, 2010 at 10:21 am
“Undoubtedly, there are many in Germany who favour the concept of a Fourth Reich.
History has shown that stifling dissent appears to be ingrained into their culture.”
Correct, and the German ruling elite still appear to have a tendency towards the use of ethnic cleansing, if their behaviour to climate change ‘deniers’ is indicative?
Perhaps these issues atr part of the reason that Britain still bases 21,500 troops in Germany, with the remaining 20,000 deployed elsewhere in the world???

I have always been fascinated by the time between the wars. One thing that has always struck me was the various groups who ended up as part of the nazi party. Some of these groups were what would be today call greenies (well by me anyways).

Dan J says:
November 11, 2010 at 12:29 pm
“Politics as usual it seems. No need to bring up ugly ghosts from the past. This from a Scandinavian point of view, would like to hear what Germans themselves think. Anyone?”
Dan, we are in a very dangerous situation. The traditional party of the left, the social democrats, the SPD, is overaged and has bad leadership, approval ratings have crumbled below the value for the Greens. We have a strong communist party, Die Linke, made up of remnants of the old communist party of East Germany, and leftists from the West.
At the moment it’s 10% for Die Linke, 20 % for SPD and 22% for Greens or somesuch. The Greens are the hip party for the younger generation, the modern Urbanite and all the younger teachers.
The red core under the green paint of the Greens has never been exposed much here; they are in fact a party whose approach towards market capitalism is “social change” – “Sozialer Wandel”, their words.
In the past, the Greens were the small partner of the mighty SPD when we had a left of center government.
Now, the SPD whithers away. We would be at the mercy of watermelons and communists if we get another left of center government. Social Change. The Big Transformation.
Me?
Canada, in that case.

@ Dennis Nikols, P. Geol.
“Remember the tradition of intolerance for difference runs deep, very deep in the culture of all European societies.”
That is simply not true. Great Britain abolished slavery long before the United States did, and by peaceful democratic means, not by a civil war. After the Napoleonic Wars a considerable part of the Royal Navy was commited to suppressing the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Today inter-racial marriage is far more common in the UK than it is in the United States. Britain also declared war on Germany in 1914 to defend Belgium and again in 1939 in an unsuccesful attempt to defend Poland. We did not wait to be attacked before going to the aid of those countries.
Denmark abolished slavery before Britain did and during World War II the vast majority of Danish Jews were sheltered from the Nazis by non-Jewish friends and then smuggled in fishing vessels over to safety in Sweden.
The Germany of today is an infinitely more tolerant and peaceful country than the Germany of the period 1870-1945, even though some political activists there are just as intolerant as their counterparts in Britain, Canada, the United States and lots of other countries.
Sweeping assertions of intolerance in European countries are unjustified.

I think most here know this, but it bears asserting. While these “greens” are representative of some Germans, they are not representative of Germany nor the majority of Germans. Having spent a good part of my youth there, I found most to very kind and worthy of respect. Some of the undertones of some of the comments here are a bit disquieting. Maybe it is getting caught up in this special day, but……….
Dirk, were I German, I’d tell you Germany needs their patriots at home.

Dave Springer says:
November 11, 2010 at 1:13 pm
“The time of the homogeneous nation-state is over”
“That’s not the problem. China, Japan, and South Korea are homogenous nation-states and they seem to be doing just fine. The problem with Europe is sloth.”
China is homogeneous? They don’t even have a single language.
“The official language of the PRC is “Putonghua”, a literal translation of which is “common speech”. This is known in English as Mandarin Chinese. However, to think that all Chinese people speak it somewhat misrepresents the true picture. According to Chinese government figures, only 53% of the population speak putonghua. Also, Ethnologue lists more than 200 languages in use in China and there are countless local dialects. This can be a problem, not only for the poor foreigners struggling to communicate, but also for the Chinese. It not unusual to see two Chinese struggling to understand each other. ”
http://www.liuzhou.co.uk/china/language.htm

@ Roy says:
November 11, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Perhaps you can help me, I’m thinking of a quote that is paraphrase as this…..”The air in Britain is too clean for a slave, ergo a slave is free the moment he steps on British soil.”
I can’t find it and don’t remember who said it! And time is short for me, but I think it is appropo for your statement.

Have to agree with Dan J and Jim G – just because a few leaders of the German Green Party (who are in opposition, not part of the government) have made fools of themselves over their ignorance of the credibility of Singer and the scientific bankruptcy of the CO2 AGW hypothesis, does not mean that it is acceptible or correct to submit to this crass national stereotyping of all Germans, or their government as jackbooted-eco-facists. We can never forgive or forget what the Nazis did in WW2, but every German I have spoken to has been deeply ashamed of and sorry for the actions of their fore-fathers. Incidentally, I am sure that Angela Merkel is much less gullible with respect to the IPCC’s junk science than David Cameron or Barack Obama. I have sent an email of support to Marie-Luise Dött for daring to question the AGW religion, but I have to say I wish the political discussions on this blog were as enlightened as the scientific can be.

Dave Springer says:
” The problem with Europe is sloth.”
Sorry, but that would be wildly inaccurate if you are talking about Germans.

@ Chris, Matt,
… what’s up with these “Klimaleugner” rhetorics ?
Just disassociate from that bullshit clearly, without any shilly-shally – and there will be no more inappropriate historical reminiscences …

Essentially, on the surface, only Germans like Germans. However the, wink wink, “green socialists” have put on a stellar propaganda show for decades, pretty much living on the unhindered snowballing effect from the 80’s. But of course then there is logic.
For all the green power production in Germany, excluding hydro from rivers since the dumb hippies hampered that evil long long ago, is still foobar level compared to nuclear and good ol’ coal.
Recently Germany adopted a, well, pseudo pro-nuclear stance, for apparently wind and solar isn’t delivering as much as promised for the next to null price as promised, nor, apparently, can’t they keep up with demand.
If you want to understand how backwards the german climate-socializts really are understand this: a bunch of hippies wanting to down all evil nuclear power plants fully knowing such a result would add a proportionally amount of coal fire power plants in reality.
Funny how it’s the oposite in the next country over: France. Of course France wouldnät need as much nuclear as it does if it weren’t for the hampered hydro by river power plants.

Anthony I met you at the Heartland climate conference in Maythis year where I was a speaker. It was a great conference, .however we urgently need such a conference in Europe,either the UK orGermany We need all our big names DrsSpencer,Lindzen,Singer, Plimer and Carter from down under plus Lord Monckton. The situation here is much worse than in the US In the UK and Germany the political alarmists are in total control. we should organise a organising committee now.

I’ve also posted an essay at http://ecotretas.blogspot.com/2010/11/o-totalitarismo-climatico.html (in Portuguese)
Ecotretas

DaveE: Pierre did not get the translation wrong but some information regarding the type of query might have been useful – A “Kleine Anfrage” such as this is usually made for tactical reasons, saber-rattling, if you will, mostly to demonstrate to one’s voters that their MPs are truly earning their keep.
If the Greens had meant business they would have made not a minor but a major query (“Grosse Anfrage”) as this requires the government to answer by thoroughly investigating the matter and most importantly by forcing a parliamentary debate on the issue. The tone and focus of this minor query suggest it is nothing more than an exercise in PR.
To me this merely indicates that the Green party is thoroughly rattled by what’s been happening over the course of the last year. It almost sounds as if they are looking for reassurance from the government that it has not abandoned the climate change agenda. They are right to be rattled, too, as Merkel has been forced to focus on the state of the economy, quietly leaving aside the ambitious climate change measures. She will sacrifice the green agenda to the interests of the economy, and the greens know it, too.

Once all the GERMANS were WARLIKE and MEAN…
We taught them a LESSON in 1918 !!!
They’ve hardly bothered us since then…
(Appologies to Tom Lehr and “That was the Year that Was”…)

It is not difficult to understand why there is currently some open dissatisfaction being expressed by some European Parliamentarians about the slow rate of progress with respect to implementing world wide global warming mitigation policies. They have been given or chose to believe only the global warming worst case scenarios over and over again for decades now. The other and more likely worst case scenarios like the possible global cooling for the next 20- 30 years with possible cold winters like the latter part of the 1970’s [which they had only a brief taste during the winters of 2009 and 2010,] are not even on their radar . Their climate scientist, mainstream media and governments seem to have isolated the public from this much more realistic and possible scenario. The arrival of this next extended cooling cycle is not exact or clear as the cooling of the north Atlantic is difficult to predict exactly and the best estimates forecast for the AMO ,PDO and AO all going negative for extended periods is 2015 . The effect of the current low solar cycle is not all that clear yet. PDO is already heading cool. AMO is again dropping but this may be seasonal only. The uncertainty is not whether the cooler cycle is coming but only the exact timing. Once the reality of this latter scenarios sinks in as the weather starts to cool for extended periods, there will be lot of questioning of the climate scientists and governments and how they possibly could have gotten it so wrong. This questioning is already starting to happen in UK, Australia, New Zealand and North America several smaller European nations and including Russia. These so called “out of control Parliamentarians” better be careful. Europeans may be somewhat authoritarian but if they find out that that they have been duped and the cold cycle option was real possibility and the authorities and scientists knew about it back in 2010 and did not warn the public properly, the public will really be angry and rightly so. These Parliamentarians better do their home work now about all the possible climate scenarios [including possible cooling] and not just unprecedented global warming options or face wrath of a very angry European public in the very near future.

Does Al Gore stand for the US?
Neither stands the German Green Party for Germany.
Unfortunately nearly all Parliament Members and the whole government believe in Al Gore’s and Michael Mann’s Global Warming Phantasies – but not all Germans do.
Pull back Al Gore, Michael Mann, Obama – the German Government will think again.
Maybe even Chancelor Merkel, the great opportunist; she is the daughter of a red protestant priest who moved from free Germany to Stalin’s Germany to support communism; therefor she was allowed to study, and she got engaged in the communist youth organization FDJ. Then changing sides when power changed sides. She will always follow the path of power. She’s power Angie.

I understand that Germany has many excellent public facilities for the mass destruction by incendiary means of certain written materials, although they have gone unused for over half a century. Perhaps the practice could be revived in order to prevent anyone being mislead by the publishings of the skeptics, or, as they’re now known, the deniers.
Those who believe that warming can be explained by solar fluctuations could wear a yellow star to symbolise the link, whilst those who believe anthropogenic global warming will cause many deaths could wear a deaths-head cap-badge.

Gosh, it’s hardly news that Greens – in any country – say outrageous things. Imagine the national stereotypes (more accurate ones, too) we could make about statements by those on the fringes of the US political system.
WUWT has some very good, sensible scientific posts. It really harms your credibility – unnecessarily – to make stupid, bigoted statements about Germans being like Nazis.
A real cheap shot. I hope not too many people read it, they might be put off examining your posts on the climate.

@Mike Jonas:
I agree with your comments about passive smoking, but dispute your characterisation of the nature of recent discussion over CFC emissions and the ozone layer. You reference
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/25/new-theory-predicts-the-largest-ozone-hole-over-antarctica-will-occur-this-month/
This concerns the type of radiation that may catalyse the reaction and how this may effect calculations of the expected size of the hole. The original model assumed that the reaction was catalysed only by sunlight. The new suggestion under discussion is that ionising radiation (cosmic rays) may also play a role in catalysing the reaction. Hence the rate of reaction would show a dependency on solar weather and the sunspot cycle. This is merely a minor adjustment to the model of ozone depletion taking one more factor into account and enabling a potentially more accurate prediction of the size of the hole each year. It doesn’t overturn the basic theory.
There was no suggestion that CFCs are not a problem or that the ozone hole is natural. There was no challenge to the theory that the hole is created by ozone undergoing a catalysed reaction with chlorine in the upper atmosphere. Nobody is challenging the belief that this chlorine gets up there almost entirely via manmade CFCs. What people are discussing are factors which may effect the rate of this reaction.
Your description of this discussion using the words …

On the ozone layer, there has been a lot of discussion recently, and it seems that there really might not be much connection between CFC emissions and the ozone layer, and that the influences on the ozone layer are mainly natural.

… is therefore incorrect.

dp says:
November 11, 2010 at 9:24 am
Zero chance I’ll be buying that BMW motorcycle, now.
At the risk of going off topic, I can recommend motot guzzi. 😀 The Italians haven’t invaded europe for ages…
But don’t blame all Germans for the silliness of a few.

[snip]

I have had one post totally snipped, and another post eliminated without a trace.
These posts pointed out that Singer has no peer reviewed publications and was paid by oil and cigarette industry money to say what he is saying. If the dollars came through front organizations, which were set up to do the work of casting doubt on the peer reviewed science, it doesn’t make him any less of a shill.
[REPLY – I repeat: Sometimes posts wind up in the spam filter. There is no “post awaiting moderation” message. It appears to have vanished. It hasn’t. We go through the spam filters periodically and retrieve valid posts. Are we clear on this now? We do snip some posts. We do so less than any AGW site you will ever encounter. I have had posts snipped. Please accept the judgment of the moderators. ~ Evan]

eadler says: November 11, 2010 at 10:33 pm
“……..Singer has no peer reviewed publications……”
Why do you (and your camp) weigh so heavily on peer-reviewed publications?
Peer review is often far from being perfect. Often relies on the whimsicality of reviewer(s).
For instance, of roughly 150 peer-reviewed papers I’ve published so far (mostly in English, some in French and German) in the field of photosynthesis research, only a handful will remain of some (small) value into the future.
If you are in academia, Mr. (?) eadler, you should be well aware of such an actuality.

eadler says:
November 11, 2010 at 9:40 pm
The criticism of Singer by the German Green party is fully justified by the facts in the public record.
Criticism? please replace with the word ‘the denier Singer’ as its appears you agree with there statements. I would also suggest you actually read more posts on Antony’s site as it will help in your understanding of why people here are skeptical about AGW.
Or you could just keep attacking people because they have a different view.

eadler says: “Mike,
Fred Singer was paid by the tobacco industry to counter the scientific data on the harmful effects of second hand smoke. This is public knowledge. It is immaterial whether he smokes or not. His claims in this area are suspect.
Does Singer also dispute the publication by the surgeon general.? “
You say “This is public knowledge” yet you offer no substantiation. You say “His claims in this area are suspect”, yet, again, you offer no documentation for your accusations. You say “Singer was paid by the tobacco industry” and again you offer nothing that would show us that this is so. All we have is your word. You can come on here and say anything you want at any time but that doesn’t make it true.
I’m curious. Do you drive a car? Have you ever used gasoline to fill you car’s tank? Do you use deodorant? Do you drink soda? Do you own a pair of athletic shoes? Do you own a television? A computer? An electric or handheld toothbrush? The list could go on, but if you have ever used any of these products, then you are guilty of supporting big oil and I think I’ll not believe anything you say anymore because you willingly, of your own free will use their products, and must be in their pocket.
You also say: “As far as I know Singer hasn’t published any peer reviewed articles on ozone depletion or anything else of significance since 1972.” So you’re not really sure, right? He might have, but if he did, you don’t know about it, right? In the last, let’s see- 2010 minus 1972 is (I have to open up my calculator here) 38 years!- Singer has not published one peer reviewed article on ozone depletion or anything else that is significant. Jeez! For a guy that so many people, including many scientists, hold in high regard, he sure is a slouch!
So I guess when you say “The criticism of Singer by the German Green party is fully justified by the facts in the public record.”, you know for sure that the German greens are “fully justified” because you are familiar with “the facts in the public record”. Right? Please, fill us in on some of those facts. Personally, I don’t think you can.
Full disclosure: I have read a couple of Mr. Singer’s books and several of his articles. I also think AGW is a hoax and we are more likely to see an ice age sooner than a blast furnace. Mr. Watts doesn’t like his site used for hurling personal insults, which I admire, so I will zip.

As far as I know, Singer hasn’t published any peer reviewed articles on ozone depletion or anything else of significance since 1972.

Would it not make sense to check these things out before stating misinformation?
A comparison of tropical temperature trends with model predictions
(International Journal of Climatology, Volume 28, Issue 13, pp. 1693-1701, December 2007)
– David H. Douglass, John R. Christy, Benjamin D. Pearson, S. Fred Singer
Altitude dependence of atmospheric temperature trends: Climate models versus observation
(Geophysical Research Letters, Volume 31, Issue 13, July 2004)
– David H. Douglass, Benjamin D. Pearson, S. Fred Singer
Disparity of tropospheric and surface temperature trends: New evidence
(Geophysical Research Letters, Volume 31, Issue 13, July 2004)
– David H. Douglass, Benjamin D. Pearson, S. Fred Singer, Paul C. Knappenberger, Patrick J. Michaels
Human Contribution to Climate Change Remains Questionable
(Eos, Transactions American Geophysical Union, Volume 80, Issue 16, pp. 183-183, April 1999)
– S. Fred Singer
Statistical analysis does not support a human influence on climate
(Energy & Environment, Volume 13, Number 3, pp. 329-331, July 2002)
– S. Fred Singer

@ James Sexton
Lord Mansfield was the judge at the trial in 1772 of James Somersett, a slave who had come to England with his “owner,” a customs officer from Boston, Massachusetts. Somersett escaped and was recaptured but was freed by the judge. His verdict immediately resulted in slavery becoming illegal in Britain but it remained legal in the colonies until Wilberforce and his allies finally managed to get an act through parliament in 1807 making it illegal throughout the British Empire.
Lord Mansfield is often quoted as saying “the air of England is too pure for a slave to breathe” but according to the web page below it was actually the lawyer defending James Somersett, the escaped slave, who said those words. I didn’t know that. I had always assumed it was the judge.
Somersett’s Case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somersett%27s_Case

Anthony, thanks for listening.. a little criticism though, sometimes it hard to see where your commentary ends and where quotations start (or end for that matter.) I work in a government office and produce documents that are distributed on a daily basis.. the formatting and typesetting is clear, cogent and understandable for anybody reading….
I can’t say the same thing for your blog posts… often the quotations are silently slipped in or the greater article is just spliced into the article with incredible sloppiness that can often lead the reader into wondering when the article ends and your commentary begins again!
Sometimes it can be very confusing what is actually going on in these blog posts… think about the first time reader of your blog. Would a better presentation of the facts be preferrable for them?
REPLY: try reading sober – Anthony

I have to say that after years of thoroughly enjoying the comments on WUWT, this is the first time I am repulsed by a lot of the comments on this thread.
This knee-jerk reaction by a lot of commenters of insulting the complete German people (and in some instances/comments the European people) by talking about yellow stars, nazi’s, world wars and socialism in relation to this green-party stupidity is very sad!
Maybe the Yanks with the big mouth should first get rid of Michael Mann, James Hansen, Al Gore, Gavin Schmidt, Obama and all those other Americans who stood at the birth of the CAGW scare!
Do not misunderstand, my wife and daughter are US (born-)citizens, I love the USA and its people and have had great respect for the level of intelligence shining from most comments on this site, but a lot of people here are now doing EXACTLY the same intolerant BS that we here always accuse the warmists of doing! Please stop.

The grant ‘carrots’ haven’t worked. The threat ‘sticks’ won’t either. What’s the next move? I see ‘mandatory’ looming.

Perhaps we should be supporting those who support real science in Germany as opposed to those who support dogma? There are a few dogmatic folk slipping into cultural sterotypes here by the looks of it.

anorak2, I just read the Left’s platform and they are definately teetering on the edge of economic communism and Green authoritarianism. Government control of industry and wages, and while they stress “individual freedoms” in their platform statement their intentions would fully sublimate individual freedoms to their extremest environmental and social/economic controls. There are all the classical buzz words and catch phrases of the far-left. They do not strike me as your run of the mill, European, Social Democrats.
The Left in English
http://die-linke.de/fileadmin/download/international/programmatic_points.pdf
The Greens may not be traditional left, but they are extremest and willing to promote the health of the environment over the health and welfare of the individual. And yes, for those that were wondering their are “Grune Jungen”. Enjoy the imagery at the site.
http://www.gruene-jugend.de/
Greens Platform in English
http://www.gruene-partei.de/cms/files/dokbin/145/145643.party_program_and_principles.pdf
And to the person who thought mentioning Nazis was jumping to conclusions, when small but growing, influential, and bellicose German political parties start tossing about the words Climate Liars and branding, Nazis do tend to pop to mind. Sorry if I can’t help myself.

Anyway, at the risk of rapid firing posts, I don’t mean to offened or tar Germans with an overly broad brush, as I noted way up high, Adenaurs, Kohls, Merkels, and Schmidts have certainly steered Germany on a positive, if occasionally veering, post-war path, but the extremests in Germany seem to be more vocal and determined that in the rest of west europe, US/Canada. I just think that if a powerful Green government is going to emerge, Germany is the prime candidate due to the party’s growth, history, and intersecting platform with other parties (of course that’s what Lenin said about Communism in Germany as I recall). The Greens do not have to win a plurality to have a powerful influence on governemnt. And of course Germany is the premier power in Europe and will have a huge impact on the long term path of the EU.

Terri Jackson says:
November 11, 2010 at 4:13 pm
Anthony I met you at the Heartland climate conference in Maythis year where I was a speaker. It was a great conference, .however we urgently need such a conference in Europe,either the UK orGermany We need all our big names DrsSpencer,Lindzen,Singer, Plimer and Carter from down under plus Lord Monckton. The situation here is much worse than in the US In the UK and Germany the political alarmists are in total control. we should organise a organising committee now.
Dr. Singer will be speaking at the forthcoming yearly international conference on climate issues in Berlin, Germany, on December 3 and 4, 2010, along with Dr. Svensmark and Lord Mockton and others. Obviously he has been in Germany before, knows it and, unlike many bloggers in this thread, does not seem to have a major problem with modern Germany. The Berlin conference this year will be the third event in a row, after Brussels and the UK this fall. Why does not anybody know about it?

tonyb & Roy
Exactly! Thanks guys, the full quote as I learned it,
“The air of England is too pure for a slave to breathe, and so everyone who breathes it becomes free. Everyone who comes to this island is entitled to the protection of English law, whatever oppression he may have suffered and whatever may be the colour of his skin.” – William Murray, First Earl of Mansfield