This is idiotic. The EU carbon trading cabal has decided to extort the rest of the air travel world starting in 2012. In a nutshell, they’ll ban flights from landing if the airlines don’t engage in carbon trading. It’s yet another variation of the “Plane Stupid” theme.
Benny Peiser of the GWPF alerts us to the translation of the article in the German magazine Handelsblatt
By Thomas Ludwig
Foreign airlines are threatened with a flight and landing ban from 2012 in the European Union if they do not participate in emissions trading.
The ban is proposed in an internal document by the EU Commission seen by Handelsblatt. Summarised on nine pages, the guidelines describe how such a ban could be implement. The Commission considers a flight and landing ban as a last resort to make the airlines surrender over its Emissions Trading Scheme.
An EU Directive stipulates that airlines from Europe and third countries are mandated to be included in the trading of emissions rights. On their flights to and from Europe, they may then only emit as much CO2 as the CO2 certificates they hold. 85 percent of the certificates are free of charge while 15 percent of the allowances have to bought via auctions.
“The whole project has not been thought through. The EU cannot impose its law on third countries,” Holger Krahmer, environmental spokesman for the German Liberal Party in the EU Parliament told Handelsblatt.
In fact, international resistance against the EU plan is growing. Several American, Asian and African airlines are suing the EU over its emissions trade project. The US Aviation Association ATA is attempting to have the policy suspended by the European Court of Justice. And the Russian government has also voiced its displeasure in Brussels.
Not even critics of the project believe that the European Commission will actually ban flights by American and other foreign airlines. “They will use it as leverage, and accept compensation measures,” estimates Liberal MEP Holger Krahmer. The EU Commission is looking for a face-saving way out: “What remains are the costs of CO2 allowances, which will only burden European airlines and make them uncompetitive” Airlines such as Lufthansa and Air Berlin had already warned of this danger in the legislative process.
“The EU has once again overestimated itself,” said Krahmer. “The project was not thought through. The EU cannot impose its legal authority on third countries.”
At the end of September, the general assembly of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) will take place. Some countries, such as the U.S. want to adopt a resolution, which will make clear that emissions trading systems may only be applied by mutual agreement.
“Greenhouse gas emissions have increased dramatically, particularly in air traffic,” said Social Democrat MEP Matthias Groote. The climate expert warns against granting exemptions to noncompliant airlines from third countries. “If the U.S. and other countries try to suspend the EU emissions trading regime for third countries, it would lead to a huge distortion of competition for European airspace.” It is more important than ever to integrate international aviation into the EU’s emissions trading system. After all, the emissions of greenhouse gases in air traffic have doubled in the past two decades.
The EU Directive, which includes aviation in emissions trading, is part of a package of regulations with which the EU wants to meet its climate protection goals. Emissions of greenhouse gases should fall by a fifth by 2020 under the 1990 level […]
The inclusion of aviation in the Emissions Trading Scheme will impact consumers too. According to calculations by the EU Commission, a ticket for a return flight within the EU could become more expensive by up to nine Euros because of emissions trading. For long-haul flights, larger price increases can be expected, a return ticket to New York could be up to 40 Euros more expensive. [translation by Philipp Mueller]
Full story here: Handelsblatt, 22 September 2010
h/t to Benny Peiser http://www.thegwpf.org
Lunacy
We had a two week trip to Spain planned. Consider it canceled. We will do the business in North America.
I have no interest in lining the pockets of no-good carbon traders.
It’s about time.
But don’t stop at airplanes…don’t even start the program until all ships, of any size, are included, along with trains, busses, and private cars.
The U.S. should lead the way, California, in fact, and start their own program by stopping traffic at the borders. Just think. You stop at the ag station in Truckee, and instead of being asked if you have any produce, they check your license plate to see if you’re coming from one of those irresponsible CO2-belching states (like Nevada)….
“Sorry, bub. Please use the area to your left to turn around.”
Pure self interest as a non-flyer should make me support this tax. The more tax they can get from activities i don’t indulge in then the less tax they have to get from me. Right.. Some people will take a bath from these carbon credits before too long, and i bet its the usual – the hard-workers and innocent via other taxes. The guilty will be be off to the next scam.
Can not afford to fly anywhere, let alone to Europe. Maybe if I invest in Chicago carbon credits I can parley them into enough for a European tour of say Spain. Maybe I could meet some royalty and have dinner with them. Oh you say they are watching this Email and DHS has been advised. Oh you say FBI has tested for this type of breach? Well I couldn’t go anyway as futures (carbon) look a little dark.
Ok, if they want to play hardball…
All politicians should be charged a carbon & hot air tax. All the poundage of paper, flights, train trips, “service” cars, junkets, power used, heating of gov buildings and the all the hot air spewed when they open their mouths, OF THE ENTIRE BUReaucracy they nominally control should be charged to them, personally.
I expect they will be displeased at having to pay to be a politician, but’s it only fair, and I think in addition that it produced suitable incentive to REDUCE the size of bureaucracies and their assigned tasks.
“The whole project has not been thought through. The EU cannot impose its law on third countries,” Holger Krahmer, environmental spokesman for the German Liberal Party in the EU Parliament told Handelsblatt.
For non-Germans reading the article that may not know, Holger Krahmer is actually with the Free Democrat Party, which is somewhat similar to the American libertarians. Its unfortunate and confusing that in American the left is called liberals and the right is called conservative. It may be because the left tends to be liberal with moral issues and the right tends to be conservative with moral issues. But with everything else, the economy, government, personal freedoms, etc., the right is liberal whereas the left is conservative, wanting to control everyone and everything.
Say goodnight to flight in the EU.
Halt all shipping. The new Iron Curtain?
Who needs friends when you can make more enemies with half the effort.
The solution is simple. Starting today, the Airlines should refuse to carry anyone associated with the EU government. That includes spouse and children of the offending members. It shouldn’t take long before this idea hits the round file.
So, the idjuts imposed a self-inflicted, industry killing mandate upon itself, and now wish to force the world to participate and help pay for it? Worried you girls can’t compete now?
“What remains are the costs of CO2 allowances, which will only burden European airlines and make them uncompetitive”…..and….. “It is more important than ever to integrate international aviation into the EU’s emissions trading system.
To reiterate a famous quote to our would be European masters,……
“Nuts”.
While it isn’t anywhere near the same situation, I believe General McAuliffe wouldn’t mind my borrowing his word for this occasion.
Hold on there. Let’s see what kind of political muscle the tourism industry has. This might get a “Nevermind” in short order if they have any clout.
Else, 2012 might be remembered in Europe as SWAT; the “Summer Without A Tourist.”
Does the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank need to purchase carbon credits from the E.U. before they can print money to send to the E.U. to pay for the carbon credits they need for the offset printing?
Well a counter ban on Euro Airlines that do carbon trade would seem to be a suitable response.
Keep them out of North America and the Middle East.
I smell someone losing money in the carbon trading scam … er … business.
Brent in Calgary
You may have also seen the story about an “International Standard” for stoves….???? Actually, the charitable part of this story doesn’t bother me, tho we don’t have the money, until we borrow it. But some versions of this story talk about an international standard. And after these stoves were provided, where will the fuel come from? hmmmm?
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/money-for-stoves-but-the-other-pledges/
There are a great number of announcements right now about “international agreements” with calls for international taxation and mentions of climate change.
Looks like a segway into the global government and global taxation scheme we all know and love already. Strange how Marxism is the solution to this scientific problem.
Personnaly I’m going to build a Zepplin covered with solar arrays for power. They don’t have night time over there do they? Their energy policies seem to work with a constant wind and solar flux.
So could the airlines meet the EU carbon indugences by buying carbon credits at $o.o5/ton and satify the nitwits . Or whatever the carbon dioxide market has sunk to this month.
It’s a bluff. Call it.
Told ya. All they needed was a pretext to do this. They don’t have to prove it (global warming) and it doesn’t matter how many times you disprove it. The agenda goes on, it’s politics not science.
I don’t know if most of you can afford a trip to Spain.
But, sadly, here in Spain a lot of people is getting to the point of not being able to afford their electricity bills. Wind turbines and solar panels are taking over conventional facilities here. Our newest nuclear plant is 30 years old and new ones are banned by law. As you know, the cost per Mw from these nice green eco-friendly energy sources is HUGE … and now it’s time for us to start paying for it 🙁
Over last 3 years our bills have grown about 30% and we face an additional 5% next month !! … and another 10% over next year !!
http://www.elmundo.es/mundodinero/2010/09/23/economia/1285233437.html
Plane tickets are not a problem for us as long as we’re facing sharp price increases on things we can’t do without. Air travel is for rich people and we’re getting closer to poverty with every new day … it’s the price of ‘trying to become’ eco-friendly.
Regards
I’m so pleased! I despise the Europeans…
Please note: Russia and Ukraine, two countries CLOSE to my heart, are NOT members of the EU. Hallelulia! Frankly, if the EU plunges themselves into a massive and severe depression..because of this foolishness….it will be FITTING PUNISHMENT FOR THE TRAVAIL they have put the UNITED STATES THROUGH in the last 100 years. (Let’s see, WWI, WWII, the Cold War…where the USA spent BILLIONS in an erronous policy of defending their lazy butts against the RUSKIES..who we should have let HAVE Europe.., are there any more things I could name?)
According to a report by Sandbag from September 2010, the EU ETS is not efficient:
“Sandbag’s analysis shows that the ETS is on course to require savings of, at best, a miniscule 32 million tonnes of emissions between 2008-2012, despite covering 12,000 installations and 1.9 billion tonnes of emissions annually”.
That is reduction of 0.3% per year, at best, when assuming “a rapid European economic recovery (to 2008 levels by 2011)”.
Source: http://www.sandbag.org.uk/node/303
Wait ’till the next Icelandic Volcano goes-the least of their worries will be carbon.
Given the cooling that is happening, we are one big eruption away from a little
(hopefully) ice age..
Idiots.
economic sabotage is what it is.
btw this incident happened two days ago, but has yet to be reported in the Murdoch media, even tho Murdoch owns 7 out of 10 newspapers read in australia, and the story has been reported overseas. with the public already angry over the Greens dictating the Govt’s agenda, to the dismay of many, i would have thought this would be headline news. i gather nine of the protesters will face court next month:
27 Sept: Newcastle Herald Australia (owned by Fairfax Media): Activists shut down Newcastle coal exports
Climate activists brought Newcastle’s billion-dollar coal-loaders to a grinding halt yesterday, suspending themselves midair to effectively shut down the world’s largest coal export operation.
Police arrested 41 members of the Rising Tide group, which launched a simultaneous protest at three coal-loader sites at dawn yesterday.
The group said it was staging an “emergency intervention” into the main cause of global warming in Australia….
Yesterday’s protest made international headlines. UK-based news agency Reuters picked up the story, as did Arabic-language broadcaster al-Jazeera and Russian state radio services….
http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/activists-shut-down-newcastle-coal-exports/1952319.aspx
‘Greenhouse gas emissions have increased dramatically, particularly in air traffic”
While true, has anyone shown that those gasses are harmful in any way aside from being mentioned in a hypothesis that has not matched actual observations?
So what if there are green house gasses, the onus is on them to show that A: greenhouse gas is harmful in any way and B: that their plan makes any measurable difference in the overall amount of them in the atmosphere.
I never had much desire to visite Europe. This just cements it.
Although…I don’t see the EU going through with this. This is a massive dinero redistribution scheme with mainly money from the USA to the EU. North American airlines should basically tell em to have at it, we’re going home. You want some of our tourists? Send a sailboat.
Hey Euro Union….why don’t you ask Mother Earth what she thinks of CO2??
Perhaps she was already hinting at this stupid regulation…by “pre-punishing” European airspace with lots of volcanic ash earlier this year.
Back to CO2. Co2 is good and necessary for life on this amazing blue-green-white marble hanging in the balance of space.
Its not nice to fool Mother Nature. Watch out. She means business.
And the European Union, I am not sure what you have been smoking to come up with this rule, but you can kiss my American ___.
Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA
But the military consumption of aircraft fuel is also large. Will the EU be placing an impost on the military forces of other countries?
BTW, I’m still waiting for a robust scientific paper that links CO2 emissions quantitatively to global temperatures. Can someone from the EU supply it, in justification for their proposal?
Mike Ford says:
September 27, 2010 at 8:14 pm
I never had much desire to visite Europe. This just cements it.
===============================
Hey…that’s kind of a really ignorant, xenophobic statement.
Don’t toss the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
Europe is the motherland. Lots and lots and LOTS of variation, history, culture, and architecture.
To say you “never had a desire to visit Europe”….is a really damning statement on your part.
Surely you were just joking….
Chris
Anti growth groups have also beaten the drum of climate to forestall the Heathrow expansion, fitting right in with the calls to halt air travel or to force citizens to choose between heating their homes or taking a flight to visit grandma. Looks like economic suicide. But if it successfully spreads, it will be economic genocide.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/kamal-ahmed/8025115/Heathrow-airport-a-very-dangerous-signal-indeed.html
In fact, jet contrails are commonly seen seeding cloud formation. I’m not sure anyone knows if they’re positive or negative feedback.
They are clearly insane. This would lead to bans on EU planes landing elsewhere, thus further isolating Europe. EU members would bail from the union if they ever did something as stupid as this.
I suspect what we are seeing is some EU version of a trial balloon. I can’t wait to hear what the Russians and Chinese have to say – and also some of the member states dependent on tourism.
EU – stuffed with failed politicians, social studies graduates and gravy-trainers. A travesty of a governing institution if ever there was one. Such a shame they wield real power otherwise we could just laugh at their classroom idiocy and hand-wringing exercises. Sack them all.
Mike Ford says:
September 27, 2010 at 8:14 pm
……….Although…I don’t see the EU going through with this. ………..
========================================================
Uhmm, have you checked lately what they’ve done to Apple and Microsoft? They have a completely different view of what “competitive” means when applying the concept to U.S. companies vs. European. Patents and copyrights are pretty much meaningless when it comes to U.S. companies holding them. Oracle,…..different story. It comes down to competitive advantages. If a U.S. company holds one, they seek to eliminate it. Mind you, not by changing their laws or prodding their companies to become competitive. Only to take the advantage away. Should be interesting, if not maddening.
One of these days I was hoping to travel to Ireland and visit the graveyards and homelands of my ancestors (“Ulster Scots”). This would nix that in short order.
Does this mean all those US and Canadian military aircraft in Europe should come home and spend the money on fuel at home instead of in Europe and Afghanistan and …. ?
Guess I’ll plan a trip for next year before the old empires crumble into sand …
The Brother of a workmate of mine here in Australia has just resigned from a major Bank. He was to trade carbon, but that dosen’t seem to be going to happen now.
Again, the Australian MSM “filter” real meaningful news from their papers and websites. Add to this, the Australian Govn’t want to “filter” the internet too.
So this is how the EU writes it’s own epitaph.
The US will be forced to withdraw the forces it has stationed in the EU or pay steep carbon taxes.
I have to wonder what these people are thinking.
Yeah, that wil work. Remember what happened during the Icelandic volcano eruption.
The sooner the EU folds and releases its hostages, the better off EUrope will be. THis is another piece of the crumbling puzzle.
It speaks world’s when the only way they can get people or a company to do what they want, as part of the global warming scam—carbon trading, is by extortion.
If the economy in the Eurozone keeps tanking, the EU itself my be on its way out before this carbon scheme is even implemented.
We can only hope…
Its stuff like this that makes me want to have 10 children and teach them all the benefits of driving cars that get 8 MPG or less.
Lets have a fun contest and see what the actual limit of the Earth is for humans instead of making up fuzzy numbers. Guess I wouldn’t be so cynical about this issue if it wasn’t for the fact that this is my time to travel before I have children and I do want to see Europe, but alas with this kind of garbage guess I will go visit China instead since they never bought into this global warming, hug a tree nonsense.
I wonder if this would be in violation of any trade agreements…
Actually, the concept isn’t anything new, it’s just be applied across a broader range of services and systems that consume fossil fules. Many companies in the EU, Australia and New Zealand are being pressured into adopting a similar scheme, they have to trade in emissions or their products will not get approval for sale. It is very similar to industry in the UK in the 80’s, the company had to be BS5250 certified (ISO9001 is the equivalent these days I think), or you just didn’t operate in the UK. It certainly looks a sure fire way to economic oblivion.
Wasn’t planning on going to Europe anyway.
Stevethesharks. Good grief, Mike Ford says he doesn’t have much desire to go to Europe and you jump to the conclusion that he is Xenophobic. That strikes me a quite an over reaction. There are quite a few places I don’t have much desire to go to such as Ohio or Detroit or Iceland. That doesn’t mean I have a fear of people from those places, just that I really don’t have a passion to see them.
My father was from Europe but I still am not that interest in going there. To suggest that preference is due to Xenophobia is way over the top. I think that your assumptions about about people who don’t share your choice in travel destinations shows the real prejudice.
Meanwhile in British Columbia, Canada…
“Last week, the provincial government caucus announced it will be introducing legislation to eliminate the jet fuel tax for international flights on April 1, 2012, saving airlines approximately $20 million in the 2012-2013 budget year.
”
http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/103887409.html
Go easy with the xenophobia and don’t confuse the EU with European peoples. Most European countries were recently denied referenda on the European constitution even where promised them. It is the political elites who have sold Europeans down the toilet.
Many, many Europeans want to get the hell out of the EU, and the number is increasing daily. One day, there WILL be a reckoning; we can only hope it won’t be violent – it’s not as if Europe is a stranger to revolutions. For the moment, the Euro looks stable after the problems in Greece, but if it goes down the pan, that will be the end of the EU as we know it, and good riddance is all I can say.
Carbon credits are cheap. The US airlines will cave in and negotiate a CTX tax on our ticket. It will be just enough not to notice. This is how it starts. But in the end it will be just another tax that will actually encourage the EU to promote traffic in order to collect more tax. This will offset the tax and actually result in more flying and an increase in co2. Central planning.
This is not going to float.
As a economic union it works somehow but as a political union it is downright a failure, the EU only exist because of these kind of measures, idiotic laws, extortions and others that would be expected from the mob.
Overhere in the Netherlands we had our carbon-tax on flights from the Netherlands, 12.50 euros for flights within Europe and 45 euros for intercontinetal flights. Within a year the minister of finance had to suspend this tax because it was costing the Dutch state more than it earned from this tax.
The carbon tax did not deliver what it promised, ever! And the Dutch population is hard one to fool all the time especially if you try to fool all of them on what is going on inside Brussel and Strassburg.
savethesharks says:
To say you “never had a desire to visit Europe”….is a really damning statement on your part.
Surely you were just joking….
Well, I’ve BEEN to Europe, didn’t enjoy it all that much, and have little desire to return. And this just cements it. Yeah, it would be interesting to visit Ireland where part of the family is from, but, well, not that interesting.
The whole place is just so old and crowded… 😉
Though I’m reminded of what my Dad said when asked if he wanted to take a vacation to go see Europe: “Son, I’ve WALKED over the dam place from England and Normandy to Berlin and never want to see it again!”
Oh, and am I the only one that finds it “odd” they “will not let planes land” … after a transatlantic flight and with empty fuel tanks??! Surely that’s not what they mean!
This is no different than the US complaining about countries who don’t have CO2 taxes on their goods and saying they’ll put compensating tariffs equal to what the CO2 taxes would have been if manufactured in the US.
This, and the EU crap are all anti-global trade efforts, which mean the anti-global crusaders who protest at every G8/G20/Gxx world meetings have won.
The UK is currently stopping millions from flying with flight taxes. This also effects small companies who must fly to meetings but guess what no effect on big business just part of the cost of doing business passed onto “customers’.
Yet another example of how they do things that just happen to have “unforeseen” consequences.
You used to be able to have a two week winter break for less than your rent. Pensioners spent the winter in warmer climes. Not any more. Who feels the pain, the poor.
Michael Larkin says:
September 27, 2010 at 9:37 pm
Go easy with the xenophobia and don’t confuse the EU with European peoples. Most European countries were recently denied referenda on the European constitution even where promised them. It is the political elites who have sold Europeans down the toilet.
Oh we had our referenda, but politics decided otherwise and threw the BIG NO spoken by the Dutch people into the garbage can.
It’s called Social Democracy.
It works on a simple principle. The people are stupid so the must be made to do what the politicos say. It never occurs to them that the politicos are people too.
@max Hugoson
How about the USA just cuts off 100% of the foreign aid money that mostly goes to waste instead of actually getting to people who need help?
Recently around 8,000 laptops were sent to Iraq to be given to students. After being held up in customs for a long time, they all vanished. Seems the containers were “mistakenly” mis-marked and the contents sold as “abandoned freight”. About half of the laptops were recovered but are still stuck in customs.
The USA spends more on AIDS and HIV research treatment than the rest of the world combined, yet what is the only country there are protests about “not spending enough”?
Cut it all off! Let the rest of the world fend for itself for a while and see how they like it. We need to take care of ourselves first for a while.
Perhaps a “modest suggestion” would help. We put a ‘landing tariff’ on all EU origin goods equal to any mandated “carbon costs” that is then rebated to American companies in exact proportion to any “carbon taxes or offsets” they must pay to the EU. The EU ought to be happy as the ‘carbon offsets’ will be purchased, and we would be happy as we didn’t have to do it with our money against our will; we would just use their money… but they want it bought, so, no problem! Right?…
Do they not understand that a lot of folks in the world are right now trying to decide to vacation in Paris or Rio? Rome or Fiji? Jack up the cost of one, and, well, it’s really cheap in Rio; and Carnival, well, what can I say…
Heck, I’m peeved enough at the bogus buckets of fees the Airlines are packing on now (and the ‘no food’ plans with 8 hours on two planes and not enough connecting time to grab a meal) that I’m planning my next trip to Florida via car as a convenience feature.
I can stretch when I want, eat and sleep when I want, don’t get ersatz protoscopy from Federal Agents, take all the bags I want, have GREAT meals – home cooked if I want, and have no risk of being stuck with a long weekend in an airport with seats designed to prevent sleeping… Oh, I can listen to my choice of news, sports, songs, etc. for free OR stop for an internet break any time I want. And I’ve always wanted to visit some parts of New Mexico and Arkansas that I’ve not made it to yet, so I can mix in some random “adventures” if I want. Frankly, just skipping all the standing in lines for “Your Papers Please!” (but without the please…) has a certain attraction to it. And did I mention the beer doesn’t cost $5 each and can be paid for in cash, if I want?…
And no, that’s not said without knowing what I’d be signing up to do. I commuted to Florida for about 6 months once. Drove it 6 ? times and flew another 6. The only advantage air had was speed and convenience. And now they have flushed convenience. Speed only matters if I don’t have time, and I’ve got time…
So Europe will find an ever larger number of folks going elsewhere, and airlines can’t jack the prices much without even more losses.
Besides, all the important places to go are in Asia now anyway.
Matthias Groote a ‘climate expert’…?
His CV:
Education and profession
1990 Graduation at the secondary school of Westrhauderfehn
1991 Freelancer in the editorial department of the Fehntjer Kurier
1991 – 1995 Vocational training as a mechanical engineer at the Deutsche Bahn AG in the reparation plant of Leverkusen-Opladen
1995 Occupation as a mechanical engineer in the field of plant construction
1995 – 1996 Community service at the German Red Cross
1996 – 1998 Advanced vocational training as a mechanical engineer – technical equipment and installation
1998 – 2005 Studies at the college of higher education in Wilhelmshaven, graduation as an industrial engineer
2001 – 2003 Additional qualification as a specialist for job safety at the college of higher education in Wilhelmshaven
2005 Occupation as a sales engineer
He’s been joined with/in the socialdemocrats [German] for most of his life and it just might be that his ‘climate expertise’ has been gathered during their evening lectures…
//TJ
E.M.Smith says:
Well, I’ve BEEN to Europe, didn’t enjoy it all that much, and have little desire to return. And this just cements it. Yeah, it would be interesting to visit Ireland where part of the family is from, but, well, not that interesting.
The whole place is just so old and crowded… 😉
===================================
Yeah I caught that wink.
But to say that is just in poor POOR taste.
I am American through and through [read my earlier post telling the EU to kiss my ___] but still, dude.
You can’t say that. All right, you can. But by doing so, you weaken your argument.
And argue all you like and take angry old man route….and you defeat your own purpose.
My reasoning stands: Don’t throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA
The Summer Olympics are scheduled for 2012 in London. This proposal might have some impact on World visitation.
The EU is the most corrupt political construct since the USSR, the captive nations within its claws are being stripped of their sovereignty and independence bit by bit. The EU has dark ambitions for a federal superstate run by a permanent political elite unhindered by the electorate who are being systematically disenfranchised and removed from the political process.
The EU needs money to finance its ambitions and the CT fraud is a prime area for extorting a constant revenue stream, its all about money and power with the aquisition of money to ensure the constancy of political power. The EU is based on a corrupt anti democratic ideology and it uses the corrupt methods of a dictatorship to achieve its ends.
We live in Europe under what you could call the ‘tyranny of the minority’ the political classes are creating a reality to suit themselves, the majority of people in the UK would dearly like to exit this ugly monstrosity yet the bought and paid for political class are determined to sell us into EU federal servitude.
The EU is determined to exploit the CT scam because it sees a way of funding its vile ambitions, it is the most morally corrupt construct since the USSR.
“Plane Stupid”??? More like “Plane Tabloid”!!!
The title to this post says: “Cancel all your European travel and vacation plans – carbon trading extortion is here”, and if you bother to read the post, you find: “The Commission considers a flight and landing ban as a last resort … ”
“Considers…”! “… Last resort”! Come on guys, you listen to any political group and you’ll hear extreme nonsense pumped out in the proposal phase! Do you think the Republicans are innocent of doing the same? I’ve heard worse proposals from US politicians in recent months! Get a grip, lets use our minds, not our emotions to make judgments. And can we please avoid tabloid headlines.
I for one hope they do it. Most of the carbo control measures implemented aren’t instantly visisble, while this one would be. There’s soon be line ups of cars waiting to get into Turkey or other neabry non EU states because they can hop a plane to their destination and still be ahead financially. Someone will do an aricle showing that airlines have adjusted their long haul routes so that they refuel in a low tax country a bit out of their way intead of refueling on the shortest stop over point due to higher taxes. Someone will eventually do a study and conclude that the work being done justy gets rerouted to save fuel in less regulted countrie, and start figuring out how many jobs have been lost to those carbon crunching heathens.
Perhaps it will then dawn on them that carbon restrictions will have the precise same effect across all industries, As serious textile tax fore example would be a real benefit to their world countries which have no such regulations and would be happy to staff up the production, replacing those high tech, high energy consumtion factories with low tech child slave labour,
What ever you try and regulate, some 3rd world dictator will figure out how to take advanatage if it, and frankly these types care not on iota about the consquences of their actions, Mugabe was all over the las climate conferene with his hand outstrecthed and dollar signs in his eyes. When it became clear that the promimsed money would not materialize Mugabe huffed of home where he continued to exprorpriate land from his citizens in order to give it to friends and family
This perhaps is the saddest thing about this whole mess. The money winds up in the hands of those who are dinky aware of what the whole farce is about, but if they can make a buck outsrouring that efficient high tech plant with a converted coal mine staffed with child slaves, they will
So the end result is jobs lost, increased pricing for everthing, and production transferred to inneficient economies where the carbon footprint dwarfs what we are going now and the facories, thought they seem to be operating with lot of short people, they are not running dwarfs into the ground until they collapse from exhaustion. Those are children paying the price for Europe pursing carbon control that is not practical.
If this risible nonsense happens then China will become one giant airport, and good on them too.
Further evidence that the EU economy is circling the drain.
I can just see the Obama administration licking their chops at another scheme to bleed the US citizens of more money.
“Over last 3 years our bills have grown about 30% and we face an additional 5% next month !! … and another 10% over next year !!”
Strange, that’s what my gas bills have done here in the UK, too. Must be all those turbines they have producing gas! Or maybe the price of natural gas is what’s driving this…
“This would lead to bans on EU planes landing elsewhere, thus further isolating Europe. EU members would bail from the union if they ever did something as stupid as this.”
Ah, so that’s the upside! Bring it on! Get us out of here!
The EU sure knows how to sink itself!
If the Europeans were serious about reducing CO2 emissions they would simply close all their airports and good riddance. The attractions of going there are not what they used to be.
I don’t quite understand whether the EU apparatchiks may force e.g. the Prague International Airport to endanger the lives of hundreds of people whose only sin is that they fly with an airline whose executive are sane and who have a spine.
Because most people and most politicians in Czechia surely think that such attempts to regulate carbon are insanity, I don’t believe that we will accept it. However, it may be more sensible to think about the possibility of shooting down all the aircrafts with people who participate in the carbon indulgence organized crime or who work for their interests in politics.
Excerpt from: savethesharks on September 27, 2010 at 8:30 pm
To which the Asians, Africans, and indigenous peoples of the Americas will all readily agree.
Although I thought that, going by the fossil record and the theory of evolution, Africa was the birthplace of all humanity. What happened, is Europe the motherland while Africa was just the surrogate-land?
While my mixed bag of ancestors do hail from distinctly European countries, like Ireland, I feel as much of an urgency to visit their homelands as they did to return to them. Several generations were born and raised in America, I was born and raised here. America is my homeland. I am a Native American. Now if only those darn census people would see it the same way…
The problem is this:
The European Union is headquartered in Brussels, Belgium, a country split in two by language and culture, French and Flemish, two groups who usually refuse to speak the other’s language.
Into this has been poured the world’s largest gravy train of pointless politicians and bureaucrats.
These bureaucrats do not pay tax and typical of the bureaucratic ‘elite’ the world over, they have to create a reason for their existence. So every year, ever more stupid, expensive and pointless regulations are churned out to burden the countries of the European Union.
No thought is ever given to the economic consequences of these regulations.
The greenies and lefties love these types of regulations as: i) they have no clue about how economies really work, and ii) because it hits out at what they perceive to be the evil capitalists.
Thus it is an ideal environment in which bad science, such as AGW, to thrive.
We need more mad ideas in Europe like this one, the sooner this suicidal policy of attempting to shame the rest of the world on CO2 by wearing hairshirts is shown to be self destructive the better.
What a brilliant idea!
Under the cloak of Global Warming the EU imposes a tariff on Airlines from non Carbon countries. I doubt this will mean a tinkers damm to the Lufthansa’s and British Airways of this word…they are already stuck with EU carbon certs. But the AA’s, Uniteds, Cathay Pacifics are going to be forced to either cut down their services (giving more market share to EU approved airlines) or raise ticket prices (probably above EU-approved airlines because the existing airlines have had time to figure out how to game the system).
A prime example of how you can get away with something that would otherwise cause an international incident if you wrap it in the magic of “Global Warming/Climate Change”
I heard recently that a majority of economists in London now believe that the EU will likely fail and collapse into something very different at the present rate. Germany is quickly losing patience for footing the bill for the economically inept 75% of the Union as well. This certainly seems a way to further push them into putting the EU in its place vis a vis meddling with the economy. The European Union is broken and looking to rob whatever members or trade partners of them it can. A weak attempt at the lost dream of COP15, to finance Europe on carbon taxation.
May I live to see the UN follow the EU into that good night.
Now we remember why our ancestors left Europe.
The problem is that there is a hugh gap between politicians and daily life in Europe. Especially in the Netherlands and Germany politicians are mainly bread within the “civil servant community”. Most of them never had a job in the outside, real world.
Also the green parties in these countries attracted a lot of communists since the fall of communism in Europe.
There is also a hughe anti-USA mentality along the greenies over here in Europe and some do refuse to show any interest in the USA in general.
(Now you can ask yourself, where are flights to and from the EU come and go to, exactly, the US!)
There are a few politicians who do recognize this problem, Sarkozy and Cameron are two of them.
Hopefully they will succeed as politicians. Also, there is a growing dissatisfaction on “green politics” in Europe!
If this EU scam actually goes into effect then the US should slap a tariff on all sales of Airbus aircraft to US-based airlines. The revenue generated from such a tariff could then be used to cancel out the carbon tax being unjustly levied against Americans traveling to Europe by plane. Problem solved.
No problem here.
Switzerland is not a member of the EU.
So just fly to Geneva and then take a train. At over 200 mph you can be almost anywhere in about a day.
This is the reality of the socialist state modeled on the old USSR. America will follow shortly if this madness continues.
I’m looking for some backers for my new carbon trading wheeze.
Us clean living and virtous Europeans live in a cool areas where the oceans surounding us are huge net sinks of Co2. Those right wing shills of big oil living in hot countries with tropical seas around them have oceans that are constantly outgasing vast amounts of CO2 and are therefore ‘sources.’ They are the prime cause of the soaring temperatures that are threatening our very existence on this planet .
From now on those of us in cold countries (the sinkies) will start charging the unprincipled ‘sourcies’ for storing in our oceans the foul and polluting Co2 that the sourcies are wilfully letting out into the atmosphere without a thought for the rest of us on this planet.
I am unsure of the method of charging, perhaps 1 penny for each gramme of co2 absorbed in each tonne of sea water?
I have yet to work out the details for those living in hot or cold countries who don’t have a coastline-guess they will have to be exempted.
Backers urgently sought.
tonyb
The Italian and Spanish mafia are both involved at very high levels in carbon trading schemes.
Yet another EU screw up. Time to pull the plug on this bogus group of bureaucrats. None of the electorate of the member states want an integrated ‘Unite States of Europe’ – Brussels has no mandate to govern.
Here’s hoping this proposed CO2 tax on foreign flights is the final straw that makes this EU house of cards come tumbling down!
Welcome to the Union of European Socialist Republics, or the Peoples Democratic Republic of the European Union! I think I just prefer to call it Disneyland, where the fantasists & fruit loops live in an unreal world! Actually that is rather unfair to Disneyland, you can have a jolly good laugh in that wonderful place in the full knowledge that none of it is real. Unfortunately the EU is not quite as entertaining, unless you can step outside the asylum for a moment & laugh at how rediculous they really are! Oh well back to reality.
Off to a compulsory retraining centre again at the weekend to have my evil wicked independent thoughts re-educated by the collective, they are really nice guys you know once you get to know them, they’re nice pleasant smiles & warm greetings & tranquility, no one ever shouts or gets angry or excited there, or expresses an opinion that hasn’t been approved in triplicate by committee beforehand, bliss!! The one bowl of rice per day & the two glasses of tepid water are really nutritious they tell me. Some inmates are rather unpleasant, one chap spread horrid rumours that our beautiful leaders in Brussels are a bunch of self-deluded, self-opiniated, self-enriching control freaks, sponging off the hard-pressed taxpayer with huge expense accounts that are never vetted, travelling all over the world business class to exotic locations dining on champagne & caviar & lobster, but I haven’t seen him for some time, & I was told by my kind & caring re-educator that he had been invited to speak at a “private function” when suddenly the platform gave way beneath him! I knew I shouldn’t have left that 11W CFL on in the kitchen for 7¾ minutes longer than permitted. Resistance is futile! (Yes I am joking, well err…….I think I am?).
More greenmail.
“Back in the 1980s, “greenmail”, an amalgam of blackmail and greenback, referred to the practice of buying enough shares in a company to threaten a takeover, thereby forcing the company to buy the shares back at a premium. As the practise and word have since faded away, perhaps it’s time to revive the term “greenmail” and invest it with new meaning. Greenmail occurs when officials and activists with media power disrupt stability and certainty in a particular industry, maintaining pressure and an air of crisis, to intimidate business leaders who hold out against some senseless green measure.“
Sorry about the typos!
Let’s see now, this is a move to ‘protect the competitiveness of EU airlines’. In other words, they don’t want people to stop flying, thereby reducing emissions, they just want to hold on to their ‘nice little earners’.
Well, if they do actually implement such gross stupidity, all the rest of the world needs to do is to deny landing rights to EU airlines. They’ll soon drop it.
So the European Union now erects the Carbon Wall. Nice.
And we have how many troops stationed over there at what cost?
I don’t understand something, how do they ‘help’ to save the planet with our carbon tax money?
I hope they rot in jail one day.
Please do not forget who started it:
Europeans who are allowed to travel to the US without a visa
1) have to register electronically before the trip (ESTA)
2) have to pay 14$ for doing this since 8 September 2010
3) have to give the same information to the airline before departure
4) have to fill in a form with the same information on the plane
5) have to spend half an hour (at least, if lucky) going through immigration
So, why are Americans complaining?
davidmhoffer says
Quote
Someone will do an article showing that airlines have adjusted their long haul routes so that they refuel in a low tax country a bit out of their way instead of refueling on the shortest stop over point due to higher taxes.
Unquote
I believe Emirates does that already. Instead of its long haul flights terminating in Australia and paying the huge overnight fees, they fly on to Auckland and rest there to return the next day refreshed and in pocket.
rbateman, it’s actually the ‘Carbon Curtain’.
Your US President will broker peace, by imposing an immediate environmental TAX, that will be invested with the Chicago Carbon-collateral for good health Exchange, sign a US/Euro carbon neutral treaty to placate the euro environmentalists plus, impose by regulation increased departure, landing, transit, passenger carbon taxes. Easily fixed when you have an agenda. all too easy..
Good to see a guy from the FDP speaking up against this. Maybe there is still a hope for sanity in Germany.
Al Gore’s Holy Hologram said on September 28, 2010 at 1:40 am
Oh come on, all those carbon trading schemes are invitations to commit fraud by ANYONE. And the possibilities for legal “fraud” are very enticing.
The airlines will cave in, citing that they have no choice. They will buy their credits in large blocks to save on transaction fees, when the market is low. They will divvy up the costs to the passengers, figured at the full price to buy them per flight, using the current market price or the price they bought them at (whatever is higher), to which will will be tacked on an “administrative fee”…
I fully sympathise with the howls of outrage from North American commenters feeling they must cancel their European holiday arrangements. We Europeans have been making a similar decision not to visit the US since Dubya launched his “war on tourism”, with its intrusive, humiliating and slow border checks that could only ever catch the most stupid and therefore ineffectual terrorists. And it hasn’t even caught any of those, although it has managed to expel a number of perfectly respectable people, like say, Yusuf Islam.
Pamela Gray says:
September 27, 2010 at 8:54 pm
“One of these days I was hoping to travel to Ireland and visit the graveyards and homelands of my ancestors (“Ulster Scots”). This would nix that in short order.”
_________
Nil desperandum, Pamela. There’s one guy at least who’ll pick you up at the door!
You may even find a seat next to the illustrious James Delingpole!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100053140/why-from-now-on-im-flying-ryanair/
Go n-éiri an bóthár leat!
Seems like a good idea to me; isolate Europe from the rest of the world.
The beneficial effect would be to shield the rest of humanity from euromadness, with it’s symptoms of extreme windmania and carboncraziness. Some of these things have spread, but here it’s chronic.
So, rest of world please stay away from us in the EUSSR. It is now a giant nuthouse, with the loonies running it
We may have already infected His Presidentness O’Barmey and some of his oppos.
Sorrrreee bout that yanks, pologise, Byeee.
“kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:”
Africa is the real motherland, ie, Out of Africa. We can all trace our mitochondrial DNA, on our mother’s side, to Africa. But there is another view, Out of Australia. So far, I am not aware if the DNA can/has be/been traced to Australia.
I vote for this!
We have the Olympics in 2012. Businesses based in London are being advised to shut down during that to save power and ease congestion. If people are thinking of coming, bring fans. Partly to enjoy the experience of being packed into one of the world’s oldest underground railway systems, and also to point at our wind turbines if it’s calm. Any biologists may also want to bring sampling kits. All sorts of interesting things breeding in our warm, moist tunnels. Anyway, if you can buy CO2 credits on CCX and sell them on ECX, you should be able to fund your trip easily. EU CO2 is like our Stella, reassuringly expensive.
This should give added impetus to the Campaign for an Independent Britain and other Eurosceptic groups. http://www.eurofaq.freeuk.com/cib/index.html
Oh, when will the Greenie madness end? Perhaps at Cancun?
If only we could have Minister Hacker and Sir Humphrey working on this problem. I am certain the could sort it out right quick now!
Certainly the British could sort this out, but we need to see their current government changed first!
Here in the UK over population is becoming a problem and our politicians are under pressure to curtail immigration so they have welcomed the EUSSR landing tax with open arms.
You can see the cogs turning – “no tax on take off that way more out than in”.
Yes I am being sarcastic, but I am talking UK politicians here, people that think they can solve 21st century energy problems with technology from the Middle Ages so to UK citizens a landing tax is a minor aberration, our politicians demonstrate on a daily basis that they are capable of far greater lunacy.
We needed US help twice in the last century to ward off the ills of Europe, beginning to look as though we will need the US again.
EU: the ugly face of creeping fascism. And our lunatic MPs think being in the EU is a jolly good idea. If it’s so good why won’t they ask the UK electorate if we’re happy about joining the club?
What do they hope to achieve with a carbon tax on air travel?
I thought the point of these taxes was to force/fund the development of alternate, ‘green’ energy sources. E.g, a carbon tax on coal-fired power stations is intended to move us to ‘renewable’ power sources such as solar and wind.
What do the airlines move to? Maybe we can we launch gliders using magnetic rail guns powered from renewable energy.
EVERYONE!
It is time to invest in parachute-manufacturing and distribution.
We’re looking at a goldmine here!
Re Amabo
That may sort out arrivals into the EU, assuming your parachute misses the windmills. Departure however may not be so easy. The Fulton pickup isn’t for the faint hearted-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery_system
and believe me, once you’re experienced EUromadness in all it’s glory, you’d want to leave. Perhaps NAFTA could be rebranded as North Atlantic, we dump the EU and join that instead?
Interesting — will Boeing halt their manufacturing in the Euro Zone? They are the company that makes the “evil” carbon engines and these aren’t cheap toys. Let me guess, they are in the 85% free camp?
Does anyone happen to know where the 15% EU carbon tax funds go, who administrates the funds, and what percentage of the proceeds actually accomplish anything?
That was studied and debated after the three-day air-traffic hiatus from 9/11/2001 to 9/13/2001.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v418/n6898/fig_tab/418601a_F1.html
The Nature article concluded that high temps were higher and low temps were lower. AGW proponents say it is just bad science. And who are we to contradict the experts on bad science?
Note: It’s a pay article, so the reference is to the figures of the paper. Link back to the article to see the abstract.
“Oh, and am I the only one that finds it “odd” they “will not let planes land” … after a transatlantic flight and with empty fuel tanks??! Surely that’s not what they mean!”
Landing rights are granted before take-off. They should have said “not be granted landing rights.”
Spare a thought for those of us who have fought tooth and nail to stop the EU, especially here in Old Blighty.
I don’t think I can express my hatred of it, or its multiple layers of quislings in British politics here without getting snipped.
Copenhagen. It would have been sweet if the thousands could have not landed there.
Maybe Mexico can get a tarriff.
The EU carbon traders are desperate. Good news there. Grin at them.
Is this a key indicator of some potential for an EU collapse into isolationist protectionist (economic variety) territorialism? Or is it just more mundane evidence of an ongoing slide?
John
Wen already pay a ‘fuel levy’ on flights out of E.U. countries. I’ve been saving the flight details for the last few years in the hope I may one day be able to take the govt to the small claims court for extortion.
savethesharks says:
Hey…that’s kind of a really ignorant, xenophobic statement.
Huh?? I like Europeans. I just have no desire to go there. HUGE difference.
Will the EU survive until 2012?
Atomic Hairdryer says:
September 28, 2010 at 7:02 am
NASA is already researching, thanks to its program “Reaching out the Crescent Moon”, for a FLYING CARPET.
Sincerely, we do suspect this is an unavoidable consequence of Brussels filled up to the top of a multitude of noses with big aspirations, that is why they chose Mexico for their next Climate Jamboree. White Stuff anyone?
Hey Brussels guys’ guess you can “fix it”, you just tell us where…
“Greenhouse gas emissions have increased dramatically, particularly in air traffic,” said Social Democrat MEP Matthias Groote. The climate expert warns against granting exemptions to noncompliant airlines from third countries.
Is this what passes for a climate expert in Germany?
Secondary school in Westrhauderfehn (leaving exam 1990); industrial engineer (1995); worked as an industrial engineer in plant design (1995); alternative public service with German Red Cross (1995-1996). Mechanical engineer (1999); qualified industrial engineer (engineering college) (2005). Sales engineer (2005).
The financial institutions cannot stand competing in the free markets. They are frequently resorting to state sponsored dictats forcing massive fraudulent costs on the masses.
Money for nothing. Goldman Sacks at it again.
Mike Ford says:
September 28, 2010 at 8:08 am
savethesharks says:
Hey…that’s kind of a really ignorant, xenophobic statement.
Huh?? I like Europeans. I just have no desire to go there. HUGE difference.
=====================================
Thanks for clarifying that.
But to say you would not want to visit the likes of Venice, London, Zurich, Munich, Barcelona, Paris, Belfast, Prague, Amsterdam, Vienna, among many others….makes no sense whatsoever.
Just because despicable statism abounds with the EU and Europeans are regularly stripped of their rights [ask Lord Monkton about that one]…does not negate the fact that Europe is the cradle of Western Civilization and pretty much MOST of what brought homo sapiens out of the stone age.
Take Britain alone. Two thousand years of history conquered by various people groups over that time: The Celts, the Romans, the Angles and the Saxons, the Normans [who were actually Vikings who spoke French], etc.
I mean just the fact that the miracle of the symphony orchestra originated from Europe should give you pause…
You have no desire to visit there?
You have got to be kidding me, dude.
Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA
Fees, tariffs, taxes, etc., etc., once you start it’s hard to stop. Politicians are the most voracious omnivores on the planet. World Wars followed by Great Depressions tend to squash their appities for a decade or two, but there’s no guarantee that trend is still valid; they seem to overcome these temporary downturns by something akin to old fashioned red ink and another World War to get industry going again and open new markets. Ain’t Economics-101 a blast?
Should this scheme be implemented successfully, I propose a simple solution for third countries:
Impose a tax on EU nationals entering their country. Pass the revenue to the airlines.
Flight 101 preparing for landing.
Hello tower
Hello.
We’re ready to land.
Reaheaheally?
Yes, we’re running on fumes up here! (No one saw that one coming I’m sure.)
Sure, just give us your carbon dioxide trading account?
What?
Your CO2 trading account number, so we can verify that your into this ponze scheme, er I’m meant climate saving the whole save the earth and nuthing but save the earth stuff.
[erie silence]
Well, hello?
Well if you don’t want to land just say so?
Heeeellooooooo!
Tower Guru puts in: Charlie?
Yeah
Didn’t you see the fire works?
@Savethesharks: I’ve been to London, Rome, Zurich, Strasbourg, …
Nice enough and all. But… “cradle of civilization”? Um, pardon, but I think that Egypt and Babylon beat it by a ways. And just as I’d not want to wander Bagdad or Cairo today (they having little in common with their ancestral accomplishments) wandering around European places that can’t quite remember their old glories and past accomplishments and who’s values today are the antithesis of those that had made them great is similarly un-interesting.
I can see the statues and buildings just fine on the internet, and don’t have to put up with the “hustle and bump”, the rip-offs, the arrogant waiters, the… well, the thing they have turned into today.
BTW, the stone age was well over long before Europe mattered. In India they have found a city, well laid out with streets and buildings in good order, reasonably modern and showing an advanced civility. Under a couple of hundred feet of water off shore… so from prior to the big melt at the end of the ice age. So if you want to learn about the beginnings of civilization, I suggest immersion in Sanskrit and Coptic / Hieroglyphic so you can read up on it. Oh, and cuneiform would help with the Babylonian bits. Gilgamesh in particular would be a nice place to start. And notice that the Egyptians were using metals from way back. They even had mirrors and cosmetics, and bottled beer.
That, after a few dozen empires came and went, (Persian anyone?) Europe managed to glean a bit of afterglow does not make it very central.
(BTW, all my ancestors are from the Celtic-Anglo-German-French area, so I’m tossing rocks at my own folks. We were bowling with the skulls of Danes not that many hundred years ago…)
The Celtic invention of soap was one of the best aspects; and the Romans just tossed it away. In a long history of slaughter and oppression.
Then they adopted a religion from a small cult in the middle east and used it as an excuse for the inquisition and crusades. Killing more millions.
This penchant carried forward into the (God I’ve lost track of how many) numberless campaigns of destruction upon each other (Napoleon, King George, …) even into the 20th century.
Finally dragging my family (that had just barely escaped the oppression and slavery of one European group by another) back from this free land to go end 2 more “World Wars” caused by European avarice and “history making”.
Sounds like a great place… /sarcoff>
So yes, I would much rather spend my time visiting French Polynesia, New Zealand, Chile, Brazil (Rio? or?), the islands of the Caribe, Japan, maybe even a bit of India and China (to see how fallen giants rise again thousands of years later), Patagonia and a jaunt to the Antarctic Peninsula, and, frankly, spending a month crossing The Outback in a caravan with the spouse and soaking up a place with a 50,000 year old culture… All of those (and many many more – islands in the Indian and Pacific oceans, for example) rank far ahead of Europe on my “bucket list”.
Europe has lost it’s way. Again. It is infatuated with central power, and will be enslaved by it. Again. And this time neither me nor my kids will come over and end it. Given the relative birth rates, the muslims will dominate Europe inside 50 years anyway. Then all the artworks can be destroyed and the cycle will be complete. Again…
The future belongs to China and Asia writ large. With luck, the Americas can watch from the sidelines this time as China crushes a decaying Europe (economically at first) and the Third World War breaks out on the Middle East to China axis. I’m pretty sure China won’t offer us the money on loan to come help Europe the next time, and I’m all for staying home. Perhaps Sao Paulo …
E.M.Smith says:
September 28, 2010 at 10:40 am
Now it has been found that the oldest city is CARAL :
http://www.caralperu.gob.pe/
Re E.M.Smith
Signing the entente cordiale was a big mistake. Helped put an end to the traditional British pastime of invading somewhere warmer and with better beaches. The whole war thing was also a handy way of thinning out populations before they became too unruly, so I’m a bit suprised Malthusian greens are so anti-war. Perhaps they’re afraid of getting conscripted, having a hair cut and having to do some real work.
E.M.Smith says:
September 28, 2010 at 10:40 am
=============================
You completely and utterly missed my point.
I am in agreement with you that there is much, much more out there just besides Europe.
But you and I are talking past each other on everything else, so enough said.
Chris
E M Smith
In your diatribe 🙂 aimed at save the sharks I think you omitted to see the word ‘cradle of WESTERN civilisation’. That the Greeks and Romans can claim to be the cradle from which many of our Western ideas, thoughts, philosophies and institutions sprang is surely correct. Which is not to denigrate the achievements of other cultures but they didn’t have the same impact on the West.
tonyb
Canada is the country of the future becasue we have enormous amounts of fresh water and gobs of coal, nat gas, oil , minerals, crop lands and forests. In BC hydro power supplies most all of the electricity and is cheap.
Thanks TonyB.
“Cradle of Western Civilization” was what I said and definitely what I meant.
-Chris
The EU has become an self-important irrelevant dinosaur. The fallout from the recent GFC confirms this. The EU’s socialist platform in part directly led to the GFC through its “redistribution of sovereign debt” and its lingering problems. The EU now has the financial basketcases of Spain, Portgual, Greece, Italy, Poland, Ireland and Iceland, and to a lesser extent the UK to bail out, and what better way to do it, then to slug the rest of the world with another tax.
Because of parliamentary politics, the Greens have disproportionate influence in Europe. And the Greens are mostly former Reds. The Green agenda is actually a Red agenda.
E.M.SMITH
A nice sum up but a little bit off base. You f=refer admiringly to civilisations disintegrating then rebounding but ignore your ow,
Are you sure that Europe was “Barbarian” whilst Egypt glowed. Where do you think Common Law came from. Why did the Romans find it so necessary to commit genocide on the Carthaginians and the Celts.
More evidence is found everyday that Europe was not a barbarian outpost, that the Romans needed to destroy it. Look at Stonehenge, built by barbaric, isolated bearskin wearing tribesmen. But recent finds show they came from Bern and Martiques, They traveled extensively.
You Ignore the Pasryks and The Tocharians, their glorious mummified remains dating to 2,000 BC that terrify the Chinese Controllers.
So which is better Soap or Common Law
Indeed nor its is coming out in the wash, the final countdown, Common Law versus Code Hammurabi.
Harold Pierce Jr says: September 28, 2010 at 3:24 pm
“Canada is the country of the future becasue we have enormous amounts of fresh water…”
This is somewhat of a myth. Canada has a lot of land area covered by fresh water, but this is different than an renewable supply of fresh water. If you use the water contained in a lake, then its gone and you need to replenish that water either through glacial/snow pack melt or rain.
B.C. will be building a new dam at its site C location that will supply power for 400, 000 homes. Or perhaps supply power for the 1 million electric cars California hopes to have by the time the dam is built (I think 10 years from now).
The Quote “The project was not thought through” sums up the whole of the EU and the working of the bureaucratic minds behind it. There are far too many examples to show this to be true to give here but one which has been a disaster is making fishermen throw back perfectly good fish if they are out of quota, the fish are either dead or dying but the rules are the rules!
I wonder what Ryanair have to say about this…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1310860/Ryanair-boss-Michael-OLeary-says-global-warming-doesnt-exist.html
garymount says:
September 28, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Harold Pierce Jr says: September 28, 2010 at 3:24 pm
“Canada is the country of the future becasue we have enormous amounts of fresh water…”
This is somewhat of a myth. Canada has a lot of land area covered by fresh water, but this is different than an renewable supply of fresh water. If you use the water contained in a lake, then its gone and you need to replenish that water either through glacial/snow pack melt or rain.
Would it surprise you if I said that we get a lot of snow and rain in this country of Canada? I hope not.
Why does everyone tack the word “renewable” onto a sentence and then claim that whatever is under discussion is not a renewable process.
I do agree that if aliens steal all the earth’s water the process whereby rain and snow falls will stop… So don’t think that I totally disagree with your opinion. 🙂
Cheers from a very snowy, rainy, hot cold war part of Canada (near Lake Simcoe) wherein the weather changes often.
I live near Vancouver which just had its second wettest September in history which followed one of the wettest Augusts in history (recorded at YVR airport, the official record location for weather (not climate)). So I know rain.
Anyway, instead of me explaining the water myth, I will let this 2006 article explain it.
http://www.innovationcanada.ca/en/articles/the-myth-of-abundant-canadian-water
“…The true measure of water that we can use sustainably is the annual runoff from land. If we exceed that value, our water use is unsustainable…”
Oh my. The article I linked to in my previous post goes off on a tangent to global warming nonsense. The first few paragraphs started well. It is a pre-climategate article so some of the nonsense can be somewhat excused.
If you read it and compare to the heavy amount of rain I alluded to, you can see how wrong the article was on increased drought.
Where is my last post ?
“The solution is simple. Starting today, the Airlines should refuse to carry anyone associated with the EU government. That includes spouse and children of the offending members. It shouldn’t take long before this idea hits the round file.”
Heck, they’ll just use VIP transports from EU air farces.
I notice some of the American posters having a go at us Europeans, why ? The majority of us are like you and don’t believe any of this.
We, in Britain were promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty but it never came so now we are led by the noses by the Autocrats in Brussels , google Nigel Farage for his views on the EU. He tells it as it really is.
They are not doing anything with the mandate of the majority of Europeans, we just don’t get a say in it.
Roll on the revolution!