http://seekingalpha.com/article/174149-are-we-exacerbating-china-s-pollution

China will eventually cure most of their pollution problems after enough suffering by the population has occured. Serious pollution affects the high ranking people in the government when they are exposed to it the same as it does the poor people who can’t move somewhere else to escape the problem.

This is only partially true. They would not allow the transfer of pollution control technology… FOR FREE. China did not want to pay to control the problem, so they didn’t for a while, until the west came in and was allowed to invest. There is a certain set of ethics and standards that is applied to foreign investment in China. You have to built to and run to higher standards than your Chinese counterpart. I have been part of two seperate Chinese projects and seen this first hand.

That said, this is an old problem and not recent. It does nothing to address more modern plants which, by the way, supplants existing Chinese plants at a rate that would boggle the mind. The steel industry is a primary example. A full two-thirds of the currently utilized capacity was built in the last 15 years. The same is mainly true for refinery operations and power plants as well.

Re: The Chinese not taking advantage of pollution control technology

Every plant that is currently constructed in China is state of the art. It has some of the best pollution controls that money can buy. Why? Because they cannot start scheduling their deliveries of raw materials until they have been certified by the government and the government will not certify without this equipment installed.

So why do you still see the yellow plumes in China? As one local engineer explained it to me. When the government inspection teams are coming, we turn on all the pollution control measures. If we don’t they will shut us down. If they surprise us, and we have not chance to act ahead of time, they do shut us down. Of course, this shutdown will not last long. It only lasts until we are sure the government is no longer watching, which normally takes a week or two. Then we start back up and get back to business as usual.

The way I see it, there are two problems in China, and lack of technology, or even installed technology, is not one of them. The first problem is enforcement. They do not have a large enough beurocracy and enforcement agency to handle all of the plants in China. This, by and large, is a by-product of their shifting economy. It is growing faster than they have the capability of growing their regulatory agencies. 8-15% growth over a 10-20 year period is not sustainable without large numbers of offenders slipping through the cracks.

The second problem is an incentive issue. There is no incentive to run pollution control measures in China because there are very few negative consequence for not doing it, and there are no positive consequences for doing it. Chinese plants are measured on total output and to lesser degree resource efficiency. This is what your job as a manager depends on. The dirty secret (or clean secret) of pollution control is that it requires more resources to run a clean plant than a dirty one, which drives a lower output than would otherwise be possible. Since you are measured on output, you are disincentivized to run as clean as possible.

Until these two problems are fixed. China will continue to be the largest polluter in the world, and make no mistake, they have already assumed this mantle. They produce more total pollution than any other country and once they reach about 50-60% of the west’s standard of living for all Chinese people they will also produce more per capita than any other country. At current rates of growth, if they are able to sustain it, that should be in about the year 2025. Personally, I don’t think it will be sustainable, but then again, I’ve been wrong about that before…

What is this crap about generating new jobs? Am I on a planet of workaholics?

People need income, not jobs! A free market creates wealth. Government hole digging and filling creates nothing but waste.

China will clean up when it can afford to.

Meanwhile, let’s make “clean” as economical as practical so the most people can afford it. That means letting lose the greatest wealth creator POSSIBLE; the free market. The chief remaining obstacle to the free market is the government backed banking and money cartel. Fix that and the free market will once again be free and we will soon live in a clean prosperous world.

You think your way is right,
what everyone should do?
Fine, but first on your own dime
and with your own sweet time.
And should your way prove right
then others will agree;
there is no need to fight.
But if your way proves wrong
should we have come along
into your darkning night?

Where is Al Gore and all of these other talking heads on these issues???

Where are they???

It is truly a life safety issue, and they are ignoring the real problems, because they are too stupid to see the forest through the trees!!”

Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA

I will tell you were they are Chris. In China about to make a billion more bucks. Maurice Strong, Father of Environmentalism and Global Warming is in Beijing as an advisor to China.

And who does Maurice Strong work for in Beijing? CH2M Hill.
CH2M Hill is “an employee-owned, multinational firm providing engineering, construction, operations and related services to public and private clients in numerous industries on six continents. CH2M HILL offers integrated services that help …”

Maurice Strong along with his buddy Al Gore is part owner of the privately held “Chicago Climate Exchange” that Obama helped set up. I wonder how much of our tax dollars are going to end up in Strong’s pocket via CH2M HILL as they build new industrial complexes in China?

Where does Maurice Strong stand as a CO2 emitter? Well if you think Al Gore was bad, Strong has him topped by a mile as the biggest source of CO2 emissions in Canada!
[quote]
…Ontario Hydro, an industrial concern, headed by Earth Summit secretary general Maurice Strong, which [b]is the biggest source of CO2 emissions in Canada.[/b] This corporation is currently selling nuclear reactors to Argentina and Chile…. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/061.html

Follow the Money….

“When the Chinese rich up they will clean up, just as every first-world country has done.

I agree with that to a great extent. But in the meantime, lets not pretend that setting carbon quotas on individuals in the Western world is going to make any difference”.

As I stated before, the entire scheme is aimed at the eradication of the free world and every western politician in support of this eradication should be trialed for treason.

The level of stupidity is mind boggling.

“I think we need to keep our perspective. Right now, poverty kills a heck of a lot more in China than does pollution. In a decade or two, that equation will have reversed, at which point China will deal with their air pollution on their own and without outside help or international agreement.

Until then, they will not. It’s as simple as that. When the Chinese rich up they will clean up, just as every first-world country has done”.

I don’t agree.
If the West had made it’s clean coal technology available to the Chinese from the beginning, a lot of problems today would not have happened.

Besides that, a big part of the investment capital comes from abroad
and the big expansion wave still has to come.
If modern technology and infrastructure is applied from scratch, it is much cheaper than adapting existing structures and introducing new infra structure later.

A good example for this is Panama City where a modern city was build and the officials failed to install a sewage treatment plant. The people that bought the real estate did not take it and forced the Government to take measures. If waste water treatment was applied from the beginning, the costs would have been only 10% of the costs they have to make now.

For China, clean technologies will create an internal growth market and an export market, generating additional jobs, tech and export revenues.

Another argument, in this case for clean water is the fact that China has severe continuity problems with the availability of clean drinking water.
Therefore cleaning up the water systems, installing filter installation and waste water recycling plants will be a necessity.

Finally, it is true that the average age of the Chinese is on the rise but so is the number of people who’s health is effected by a poisoned environment.

Sooner or later someone is going to pay the bill for that.

Insurance companies offering “package insurance” comparable to the insurance packages sold in Europe and and the USA will also result in pressures to clean up
the mess as independent specialist perform section on insured customers that passed away. The first legal procedures are already underway. These and other developments will further increase legal procedures that eventually will force the Chinese State to act.

The recent scandals like lead poisoned paint applied on toys, textiles with high benzene values, the milk scandal etc. are bad publicity for “Made In China” and make policy changes inevitable.

Government competes for the rest of the economy for money. What has happened is that “the people” seem to be demanding that someone else (government) do more and more for them rather than doing it themselves. This results in government requiring more money leaving less for the rest of the economy.

Government will “emasculate” the industrial base when it needs the money. It will put industry right out of business and take the money from the citizens’ pockets. Government and industry are competitors for capital.

November 14, 2009, 12:18 pm
Your Dot: Turcios and Dougherty on Earth-Scale Ethics
By ANDREW C. REVKIN

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/your-dot-turcios-and-dougherty-on-earth-scale-ethics/

“Laurie Dougherty, a frequent contributor, wrote this response to a comment on environmentalism as religion:
We don’t need an environmental religion. We do need an environmental ethic which redefines our mutual responsibilities and which is grounded in stewardship rather than mastery, in care and concern for the earth and its inhabitants, and in an understanding that collective process does not need to oppress the individual, but rather offers to each individual an opportunity to contribute to the common good.
The religion I fear is the belief that ensnares us now: a belief in free markets and unfettered individualism above all else – a belief that privileges the greedy, the powerful, the shortsighted, and the cruel.”

Enviromorontalists are blaming Capitalism for our current social dilemma. Big business, i.e. fuel fossil companies, are myopic and cruel. The far-left libs of this country want to re-write our constitution. Forget you liberties. Give up your freedom. Sacrifice your prosperity. All in the name of greater good.

The only crime being committed is the lies and deceit and misrepresentions of these eco-fascist liberals that want to destroy our way of life.

I followed and read the links provided. That was some sleuthing on your part, and I thank you for it.

Little did I know, that a memory of a story from my childhood, would directly connect with this post on China’s current problems.

A young women from Denora, becomes a doctor,travels to China, and is reminded of her own memories of death and pollution.
I find the whole thing quite facinating.

@chmd (07:20:44) :

Pollution, mainly the particulates we see and smell, are a threat to our quality of life. Curbing those emissions should be a global concern.

Too much is emphasized on a trace gas that is naturally produced in nature, when our concern should be the well beings of others. Where ever they live on this planet.

I want to see other nations take responsibilty for their own actions. No one put a gun to their head. Those governments CHOSE to follow our lead.

But sadly, there are those among us that wish to impose guilt, for the supposed sins of our fathers, for THEIR choices.

As far as I can tell, the only sin being commited here, is the blatant disregard of the truth.

And that truth is: CO2 is not evil or wrong or in need of control. Misrepresention is. Pollution is. Vilification of our Western Civilization is.

Our consumption of the products they produce is our wrong doing. If you really want to make a ‘green’ difference,dont consume overseas products that are not equal with our own regulations. Look around you. Start making sound choices.

Those nations need to impose regulations on themselves. Those nations need to stop the deaths and pollution they create. Not us.

Freedom, equality and prosperity has been the foundation of our society for centuries. But that is changing.
The greed and avarice of failing institutions, i.e. EPA, Greenpeace and others like them, lead us to a path of destruction of those foundations.

Anthroprogenic Death by irresponsible industrialization and the blatant disregard for truth by environmentalists is the only wrong doing here.

Wake Up!

When their own children are born with diminished mental capacity, when their own siblings are stricken with what had been rare cancers, they will finally act. But one thing that spurred cleanup in the West was candidates for government office making such things a campaign issue. And ultimately it comes down to cost. When you make a process cleaner, it generally adds cost to that process. At this point the cost of the changes required are not deemed to be worthwhile. But at some point they will have to assign some value to health and not only to their health but to the health of the nation. That value is today apparently low.

If poverty is the primary limitation on the health of the nation, decreasing poverty is probably of higher value than consequences from pollution but when the primary limitation on health is the pollution, it will be addressed.

> How come I did nit get a credit for posting this in Tips? ;-)

I don’t know. I didn’t see it there, and it’s not in the current version.

What did you say about it? I generally skip posts that have a URL and a description like “Anthony, you have to see this.” If you posted the URL and a paragraph about it referring to an award-winning photo essay and included a <blockquote>ed snippet like

At the junction of Ningxia province and Inner Mongolia province, I saw a tall chimney puffing out golden smoke covering the blue sky, large tracts of the grassland have become industrial waste dumps; unbearable foul smell made people want to cough; Surging industrial sewage flowed into the Yellow River…”

Then I would most likely have taken note.

We in the West are responsible for what’s happening in China and India.

It is Western big businesses that profiteered by moving production to these countries to get lower production costs – cheap labour & low cost factories which didn’t have to conform to Western safety and pollution regulations.

I disagree. Previous industrial societies got into their state of affairs in part by not having the technologies to do things more cleanly, though “out of sight, out of mind” was far more predominant, especially if you had a convenient river out back.

However, the Chinese have access to the technology, they know things can be done more cleanly, they have a huge iinflux of money. It’s just more convenient to not do things cleanly. Apparently that’s beginning to change, some of the newer coal plants are more efficient and much cleaner.

China has a very strong government. They could impose a subset of “Western safety and pollution regulations.” and still be extremely competitive.