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	<title>Comments on: Lightning: a new tool for accurately measuring the sun&#8217;s rotation when sunspots are not present</title>
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	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/</link>
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		<title>By: Hugo M</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-225641</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hugo M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-225641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;cite&gt; anna v (01:24:17) :  
 
If it is a moon effect it will have to do with the rotational period of 27.3 days. A sort of tide of the ionosphere, so it is only the daylight that connects the phenomenon to the sun, but maybe does not exclude the moon, since it might be an effect that needs the extra boost of the incoming sun ionisation of all frequencies. I am speculating, of course, but as we know that all these phenomena are complex it seems very simplistic to just think of the sun. &lt;/cite&gt;

Anna, 

compared with the hypothesis of Reuveni and Price, your speculation has the advantage that it can be more easily falsified. If the moon had such a prominent influence I would expect at least one more peak in their Fig. 3, namely at 29.5 days (same moon phase). You could argue that the observation period was too short, as there had been only about six lunar cycles passed during data aquisition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><cite> anna v (01:24:17) :  </p>
<p>If it is a moon effect it will have to do with the rotational period of 27.3 days. A sort of tide of the ionosphere, so it is only the daylight that connects the phenomenon to the sun, but maybe does not exclude the moon, since it might be an effect that needs the extra boost of the incoming sun ionisation of all frequencies. I am speculating, of course, but as we know that all these phenomena are complex it seems very simplistic to just think of the sun. </cite></p>
<p>Anna, </p>
<p>compared with the hypothesis of Reuveni and Price, your speculation has the advantage that it can be more easily falsified. If the moon had such a prominent influence I would expect at least one more peak in their Fig. 3, namely at 29.5 days (same moon phase). You could argue that the observation period was too short, as there had been only about six lunar cycles passed during data aquisition.</p>
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		<title>By: anna v</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-225524</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anna v]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-225524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hugo M (04:46:20)

If it is a moon effect it will have to do with the rotational period of 27.3 days. A sort of tide of the ionosphere, so it is only the daylight that connects the phenomenon to the sun, but maybe does not exclude the moon, since it might be an effect that needs the extra boost of the incoming sun ionisation of all frequencies.
I am speculating, of course, but as we know that all these phenomena are complex it seems very simplistic to just think of the sun.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo M (04:46:20)</p>
<p>If it is a moon effect it will have to do with the rotational period of 27.3 days. A sort of tide of the ionosphere, so it is only the daylight that connects the phenomenon to the sun, but maybe does not exclude the moon, since it might be an effect that needs the extra boost of the incoming sun ionisation of all frequencies.<br />
I am speculating, of course, but as we know that all these phenomena are complex it seems very simplistic to just think of the sun.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo M</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-224994</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hugo M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-224994</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;cite&gt;Jeff L (16:13:29)
“An initial thought though – the orbit of the moon has a periodicity of 27.3 days,… very close to the 27 day periodicity described in the article, so why do the researchers think this is a solar related phenomena &amp; not a lunar phenomena??”
&lt;/cite&gt;

1.) The 27 day periodicity was detectable only on the dayside of the earth
2.) The moon orbit has a sidereal periodicity of 27.23 days,  while it&#039;s synodicperiod is 29.53 days.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><cite>Jeff L (16:13:29)<br />
“An initial thought though – the orbit of the moon has a periodicity of 27.3 days,… very close to the 27 day periodicity described in the article, so why do the researchers think this is a solar related phenomena &amp; not a lunar phenomena??”<br />
</cite></p>
<p>1.) The 27 day periodicity was detectable only on the dayside of the earth<br />
2.) The moon orbit has a sidereal periodicity of 27.23 days,  while it&#8217;s synodicperiod is 29.53 days.</p>
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		<title>By: vukcevic</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223552</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vukcevic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223552</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[tallbloke (02:24:03) : 
Perhaps the Jupiter-Saturn synodic period affects this too.

Well, it is all a bit of a guessing game. In my view J is a main driver while S is a main distracter, others E, U &amp; N are minor ones. E is important since it is close enough, its magnetosphere can take significant amount of power from ‘solar current’ before it spreads out. Saturn much further away is large enough to provide main secondary effect, while U &amp; N although strong are too far out, so if you take square law dispersal into account, their influence becomes minor. If you consider that SC4 had SC4a appendage (http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LostCycle.gif), than with variability of the heliosphere we can see certain logic to it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tallbloke (02:24:03) :<br />
Perhaps the Jupiter-Saturn synodic period affects this too.</p>
<p>Well, it is all a bit of a guessing game. In my view J is a main driver while S is a main distracter, others E, U &amp; N are minor ones. E is important since it is close enough, its magnetosphere can take significant amount of power from ‘solar current’ before it spreads out. Saturn much further away is large enough to provide main secondary effect, while U &amp; N although strong are too far out, so if you take square law dispersal into account, their influence becomes minor. If you consider that SC4 had SC4a appendage (<a href="http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LostCycle.gif" rel="nofollow">http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LostCycle.gif</a>), than with variability of the heliosphere we can see certain logic to it.</p>
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		<title>By: tallbloke</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223450</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tallbloke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;vukcevic (01:51:52) :

Unfortunately, as you know, it is never as simple as that. There is continuous drift back and forth over period of a sunspot cycle or two. &lt;/i&gt;

Perhaps the Jupiter-Saturn synodic period affects this too. I agree with you that magnetic resonances are a more likely a fruitful area of investigation than gravity/tidal effects.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>vukcevic (01:51:52) :</p>
<p>Unfortunately, as you know, it is never as simple as that. There is continuous drift back and forth over period of a sunspot cycle or two. </i></p>
<p>Perhaps the Jupiter-Saturn synodic period affects this too. I agree with you that magnetic resonances are a more likely a fruitful area of investigation than gravity/tidal effects.</p>
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		<title>By: vukcevic</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223436</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vukcevic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223436</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[tallbloke (18:00:47) :
“Thanks Vuk, very interesting. Does the trough in the negative subcycle align with a particular phase of the earth-jupiter synodic period? Like opposition maybe?”

Unfortunately, as you know, it is never as simple as that. There is continuous drift back and forth over period of a sunspot cycle or two. This is one of the reasons I believe that gravity is not a factor (except maintaining the orbits), leading me to conclude that whole process might be to do with magnetospheric feedback. If takes 8-14 months for ‘solar current’ to hit boundary of the heliosphere, and as much again to come back, hence phase drift of the subcycle, as well as variability in the duration and strength of the main 11y cycle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tallbloke (18:00:47) :<br />
“Thanks Vuk, very interesting. Does the trough in the negative subcycle align with a particular phase of the earth-jupiter synodic period? Like opposition maybe?”</p>
<p>Unfortunately, as you know, it is never as simple as that. There is continuous drift back and forth over period of a sunspot cycle or two. This is one of the reasons I believe that gravity is not a factor (except maintaining the orbits), leading me to conclude that whole process might be to do with magnetospheric feedback. If takes 8-14 months for ‘solar current’ to hit boundary of the heliosphere, and as much again to come back, hence phase drift of the subcycle, as well as variability in the duration and strength of the main 11y cycle.</p>
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		<title>By: D Gallagher</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223377</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D Gallagher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223377</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Legatus,

If Leif were here...

Observations of the spectrum of light given off by the sun give a good indication that the sun is still primarily hydrogen. In fact the physics behind stars is understood well enough that they have an fairly close estimate on the age of the sun and about how long it will be before it finishes fusioning, 4 1/2 billion years old and about 5 1/2 billion to go, if memory serves.

Information about star formation, composition, and life cycle is available in any good textbook concerning astronomy, there&#039;s no need to speculate on that account.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Legatus,</p>
<p>If Leif were here&#8230;</p>
<p>Observations of the spectrum of light given off by the sun give a good indication that the sun is still primarily hydrogen. In fact the physics behind stars is understood well enough that they have an fairly close estimate on the age of the sun and about how long it will be before it finishes fusioning, 4 1/2 billion years old and about 5 1/2 billion to go, if memory serves.</p>
<p>Information about star formation, composition, and life cycle is available in any good textbook concerning astronomy, there&#8217;s no need to speculate on that account.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: anna v</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223373</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anna v]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223373</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This publication sounds to me like a swallow publication:
&lt;i&gt;When God created the swallow, a migrating bird that winters in Africa, He started to show him how to build his nest. He showed how to make small mud balls with his tongue and how to gradually build up the nest; but He was interrupted just before reaching the point where He started to show the swallow how the nest should get covered and have a roof. The swallow, half paying attention flexing its wings and ready to fly off swiftly after juicy flies and mosquitoes said “OK, OK, I know, I know” and flew away.

That is why swallows’ nests are only half built and they have to be under a roof or an outcropping. The swallow never had the patience to listen to the end of the demonstration.&lt;/i&gt;

The period of observation is too short, there exists another approximate  27 day cycle (the moon one)that distorts with that period the whole atmosphere. Are these addressed? Or is it &quot;I know, I know&quot; and rushing merrily along to publication?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This publication sounds to me like a swallow publication:<br />
<i>When God created the swallow, a migrating bird that winters in Africa, He started to show him how to build his nest. He showed how to make small mud balls with his tongue and how to gradually build up the nest; but He was interrupted just before reaching the point where He started to show the swallow how the nest should get covered and have a roof. The swallow, half paying attention flexing its wings and ready to fly off swiftly after juicy flies and mosquitoes said “OK, OK, I know, I know” and flew away.</p>
<p>That is why swallows’ nests are only half built and they have to be under a roof or an outcropping. The swallow never had the patience to listen to the end of the demonstration.</i></p>
<p>The period of observation is too short, there exists another approximate  27 day cycle (the moon one)that distorts with that period the whole atmosphere. Are these addressed? Or is it &#8220;I know, I know&#8221; and rushing merrily along to publication?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: tallbloke</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223299</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tallbloke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 02:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;vukcevic (12:27:26) :

tallbloke (16:11:07) :
“I wonder if there’s a second order modulation at around 13 months (396 days) frequency.”

Number of Solar Cycles show presence of a strong subcycle with a period of 399 days or 1.0928 years). I analysed all 23 cycles individually, you can see here result for SC17 &amp; SC23.
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/SC17-SC23.gif
Complete analysis:
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/solarsubcycle.pdf&lt;/i&gt;

Thanks Vuk, very interesting. Does the trough in the negative subcycle align with a particular phase of the earth-jupiter synodic period? Like opposition maybe?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>vukcevic (12:27:26) :</p>
<p>tallbloke (16:11:07) :<br />
“I wonder if there’s a second order modulation at around 13 months (396 days) frequency.”</p>
<p>Number of Solar Cycles show presence of a strong subcycle with a period of 399 days or 1.0928 years). I analysed all 23 cycles individually, you can see here result for SC17 &amp; SC23.<br />
<a href="http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/SC17-SC23.gif" rel="nofollow">http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/SC17-SC23.gif</a><br />
Complete analysis:<br />
<a href="http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/solarsubcycle.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/solarsubcycle.pdf</a></i></p>
<p>Thanks Vuk, very interesting. Does the trough in the negative subcycle align with a particular phase of the earth-jupiter synodic period? Like opposition maybe?</p>
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		<title>By: Legatus</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223217</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Legatus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223217</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Furher observations on a &quot;solid sun&quot; model:
There is considerable controversy on the idea that the sun is largly iron cored, or solid, however, there is some dats that suggests that the idea may have some merit, and data such as this 27 day rotation period and SOHO imaging that suggests that whatever the core of the sun is made of, it may be acting as a solid or semi-solid due to the considerable gravitational and magnetic forces involved. After all, what do we really know about hydrogen plasma under those kinds of gravitational pressures?
There is some recent data however that suggests that after the big bang, and afer the formation of hydrogen, that there were a lot of vary large hydrogen stars formed that burned out quickly and then exploded, which would result in a lot of early iron/nickel around. The question then is, how much iron/nickel compared to how much hydrogen, is there enough hydrogen around after that to account for billions of years of steller fusion?
Competing with that, if the sun were largely made of iron, wouldn&#039;t that make it a lot more dense than obsorved, gravity wise? One could suggest that a sun made of heavier elements than hydrogen and of the observed size that it is would have more gravity than one made of largly lighter elements than hydrogen/helium. This assumes that we know how either of them would react under the gravitational and magnetic and atomic forces present in the unseen subsurface of the sun. Perhaps with the ongoing attempts to create fusion on earth as a power source we will better understand hydrogen under extreme pressures and tempetures to answer this.

Whatever the answers to the above questions are, it does appear that for whatever reason, the suns subsurface acts at least semi solid, and has a rotaion of 27.3 days, which is consistant with other data such as this lightning strike data, and it suggests that we really don&#039;t know a whole lot about the interior of the sun and it&#039;s makup and workings.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Furher observations on a &#8220;solid sun&#8221; model:<br />
There is considerable controversy on the idea that the sun is largly iron cored, or solid, however, there is some dats that suggests that the idea may have some merit, and data such as this 27 day rotation period and SOHO imaging that suggests that whatever the core of the sun is made of, it may be acting as a solid or semi-solid due to the considerable gravitational and magnetic forces involved. After all, what do we really know about hydrogen plasma under those kinds of gravitational pressures?<br />
There is some recent data however that suggests that after the big bang, and afer the formation of hydrogen, that there were a lot of vary large hydrogen stars formed that burned out quickly and then exploded, which would result in a lot of early iron/nickel around. The question then is, how much iron/nickel compared to how much hydrogen, is there enough hydrogen around after that to account for billions of years of steller fusion?<br />
Competing with that, if the sun were largely made of iron, wouldn&#8217;t that make it a lot more dense than obsorved, gravity wise? One could suggest that a sun made of heavier elements than hydrogen and of the observed size that it is would have more gravity than one made of largly lighter elements than hydrogen/helium. This assumes that we know how either of them would react under the gravitational and magnetic and atomic forces present in the unseen subsurface of the sun. Perhaps with the ongoing attempts to create fusion on earth as a power source we will better understand hydrogen under extreme pressures and tempetures to answer this.</p>
<p>Whatever the answers to the above questions are, it does appear that for whatever reason, the suns subsurface acts at least semi solid, and has a rotaion of 27.3 days, which is consistant with other data such as this lightning strike data, and it suggests that we really don&#8217;t know a whole lot about the interior of the sun and it&#8217;s makup and workings.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Legatus</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223205</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Legatus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223205</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have noticed that you say here that there can&#039;t be a 27 day rotation of the sun since it is not a solid, what if it IS a solid? There is some evidence that suggests that it may be here   http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/  . What do we really KNOW about the inner layers of the sun anyway? Are we just going on &quot;consensus science&quot; on the makup of the sun, and how it operates? Since we can&#039;t, or haven&#039;t, actually sent a probe down INTO the sun, how do we know what is beneath the surface layer?
The above websight suggests strogly that the sun has a subsurface ferrite layer that rotates every 27.3 days, sound familiar?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have noticed that you say here that there can&#8217;t be a 27 day rotation of the sun since it is not a solid, what if it IS a solid? There is some evidence that suggests that it may be here   <a href="http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/</a>  . What do we really KNOW about the inner layers of the sun anyway? Are we just going on &#8220;consensus science&#8221; on the makup of the sun, and how it operates? Since we can&#8217;t, or haven&#8217;t, actually sent a probe down INTO the sun, how do we know what is beneath the surface layer?<br />
The above websight suggests strogly that the sun has a subsurface ferrite layer that rotates every 27.3 days, sound familiar?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223203</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:19:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt; George E. Smith (10:36:29) :
“”&quot; evanmjones (19:52:36) :

The moon’s orbit is slowly increasing in radius due to the tidal forces slowing the earth’s rotation, which lowers it’s angular momentum; so the moon’s angular momentum about the earth has to increase to keep the sum constant; well cosntant other than for solar effects, and the continuous influx of materials from outer space, in comets, and meteorites; but who knows what that does, since there is a mass increase due to the material landing on earth; but also there is an angular momentum imparted to the earth in completley random directions depending on the trajectory of the incoming.&lt;/i&gt;

One way of looking at it is that the Earth and Moon are tethered together by a gravitational &quot;string&quot;. As the seas rotate with the Earth due to its gravity they are also pulled and dragged back by the Moon which rotates around the Earth at a much slower rate. Thus there is a slight drag on the Earth as the seas pile up on the rigid land and a corresponding flick on the Moon, pushing it further away.

The slowing of the Earth due to its increase in mass from objects from space and impacts from them would be negligible compared to this. 

The Moon is moving away from the Earth at about 4 cms/ year? Considering that the Moon is about 384,000 Kms from the Earth a billion years ago the moon would have been 40,000 kms closer to the Earth. (Maybe closer still as the increase is not linear, it would have been greater the closer the distance). It would have been much bigger in the sky and the tides would have been huge.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> George E. Smith (10:36:29) :<br />
“”&#8221; evanmjones (19:52:36) :</p>
<p>The moon’s orbit is slowly increasing in radius due to the tidal forces slowing the earth’s rotation, which lowers it’s angular momentum; so the moon’s angular momentum about the earth has to increase to keep the sum constant; well cosntant other than for solar effects, and the continuous influx of materials from outer space, in comets, and meteorites; but who knows what that does, since there is a mass increase due to the material landing on earth; but also there is an angular momentum imparted to the earth in completley random directions depending on the trajectory of the incoming.</i></p>
<p>One way of looking at it is that the Earth and Moon are tethered together by a gravitational &#8220;string&#8221;. As the seas rotate with the Earth due to its gravity they are also pulled and dragged back by the Moon which rotates around the Earth at a much slower rate. Thus there is a slight drag on the Earth as the seas pile up on the rigid land and a corresponding flick on the Moon, pushing it further away.</p>
<p>The slowing of the Earth due to its increase in mass from objects from space and impacts from them would be negligible compared to this. </p>
<p>The Moon is moving away from the Earth at about 4 cms/ year? Considering that the Moon is about 384,000 Kms from the Earth a billion years ago the moon would have been 40,000 kms closer to the Earth. (Maybe closer still as the increase is not linear, it would have been greater the closer the distance). It would have been much bigger in the sky and the tides would have been huge.</p>
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		<title>By: vukcevic</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223176</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vukcevic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223176</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[tallbloke (16:11:07) :
&quot;I wonder if there’s a second order modulation at around 13 months (396 days) frequency.&quot;

Number of Solar Cycles show presence of a strong subcycle with a period of 399 days or 1.0928 years). I analysed all 23 cycles individually, you can see here result for SC17 &amp; SC23.
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/SC17-SC23.gif
Complete analysis:
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/solarsubcycle.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tallbloke (16:11:07) :<br />
&#8220;I wonder if there’s a second order modulation at around 13 months (396 days) frequency.&#8221;</p>
<p>Number of Solar Cycles show presence of a strong subcycle with a period of 399 days or 1.0928 years). I analysed all 23 cycles individually, you can see here result for SC17 &amp; SC23.<br />
<a href="http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/SC17-SC23.gif" rel="nofollow">http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/SC17-SC23.gif</a><br />
Complete analysis:<br />
<a href="http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/solarsubcycle.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/solarsubcycle.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Philip Mulholland</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223166</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Philip Mulholland]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[tallbloke (16:11:07) :

&lt;em&gt;Interesting. I wonder if there’s a second order modulation at around 13 months (396 days) frequency.&lt;/em&gt;
 
Here is a link to the original pdf:-

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tau.ac.il/~royyaniv/ILAN_website/solar.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A new approach for monitoring the 27-day solar rotation using VLF radio signals on the Earth’s surface&lt;/a&gt;
(Don&#039;t think this has been posted here yet).

In Figure 3, the data computation length of this power spectrum is 220 days (7 months), so more data is clearly needed to address your point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tallbloke (16:11:07) :</p>
<p><em>Interesting. I wonder if there’s a second order modulation at around 13 months (396 days) frequency.</em></p>
<p>Here is a link to the original pdf:-</p>
<p><a href="http://www.tau.ac.il/~royyaniv/ILAN_website/solar.pdf" rel="nofollow">A new approach for monitoring the 27-day solar rotation using VLF radio signals on the Earth’s surface</a><br />
(Don&#8217;t think this has been posted here yet).</p>
<p>In Figure 3, the data computation length of this power spectrum is 220 days (7 months), so more data is clearly needed to address your point.</p>
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		<title>By: George E. Smith</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/11/lightning-a-new-tool-for-accurately-measuring-the-suns-rotation-when-sunspots-are-not-present/#comment-223133</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George E. Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=12739#comment-223133</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;&quot;&quot;   _Jim (19:38:37) : 


George E. Smith (17:28:57) :
…
These very low audio frequency radio waves actually propagate across the earth along paths that are guided by the earth’s magnetic fields.


‘fraid not … (now, how those magnetic fields may affect the ionophere which affect radio waves is another issue)   &quot;&quot;&quot;

Well I guess we must have been listening to alien transmissions then.  Last time I checked, the ionosphere that affects electromagnetic wave propagation; was so-called because it has a lot of ions floating around up there, which includes free electrons, as well as other charged particles.

And somewhere I learned that these charged particles can and do spiral around the earth&#039;s magnetic field lines; along with charged solar particles and cosmic rays, so that those directed ion streams end up creating auroral displays near the magnetic polar regions, so the earth&#039;s field gives all the signs of creating ion pathways, that simply would not be there in the absence of a magnetic field on earth.

The radio signals that we were studying chirped from subaudible (few Hertz) to a few khz at most.   I could easily hear to 20KHz in those days, and I never heard anything that high; maybe 3 kHz at best.

At those frequencies it would be pretty much ground wave anyway.

But obviously we were being fooled by Hams or aliens spinning the knob on an audio oscillator, just to keep us busy.

Or maybe I just imagined the whole experience.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8221;"   _Jim (19:38:37) : </p>
<p>George E. Smith (17:28:57) :<br />
…<br />
These very low audio frequency radio waves actually propagate across the earth along paths that are guided by the earth’s magnetic fields.</p>
<p>‘fraid not … (now, how those magnetic fields may affect the ionophere which affect radio waves is another issue)   &#8220;&#8221;"</p>
<p>Well I guess we must have been listening to alien transmissions then.  Last time I checked, the ionosphere that affects electromagnetic wave propagation; was so-called because it has a lot of ions floating around up there, which includes free electrons, as well as other charged particles.</p>
<p>And somewhere I learned that these charged particles can and do spiral around the earth&#8217;s magnetic field lines; along with charged solar particles and cosmic rays, so that those directed ion streams end up creating auroral displays near the magnetic polar regions, so the earth&#8217;s field gives all the signs of creating ion pathways, that simply would not be there in the absence of a magnetic field on earth.</p>
<p>The radio signals that we were studying chirped from subaudible (few Hertz) to a few khz at most.   I could easily hear to 20KHz in those days, and I never heard anything that high; maybe 3 kHz at best.</p>
<p>At those frequencies it would be pretty much ground wave anyway.</p>
<p>But obviously we were being fooled by Hams or aliens spinning the knob on an audio oscillator, just to keep us busy.</p>
<p>Or maybe I just imagined the whole experience.</p>
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