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	<title>Comments on: 2009 Arctic Sea Ice Extent exceeds 2005 for this date</title>
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	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Thiers</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-199066</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Thiers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-199066</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The IJIS website that you cite as the source for the information in this blog posting now (early October)shows that the extent of sea ice has fallen back below 2005 levels

http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm

Since the comparison to 2005 was the central theme of your blog post I hope you will note this for your readers.

Also, as you know, comparing data points from a couple of nearly adjacent years can not be expected to show the greenhouse effect.  If you or your readers want to see how the current year compares to long term averages, I suggest that you use the graph on the NSIDC website at

http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png

This graph gives current year, record year and average from 1979-2000.  I have found that students understand this graph without giving the change in consecutive years more weight than it deserves.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The IJIS website that you cite as the source for the information in this blog posting now (early October)shows that the extent of sea ice has fallen back below 2005 levels</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm</a></p>
<p>Since the comparison to 2005 was the central theme of your blog post I hope you will note this for your readers.</p>
<p>Also, as you know, comparing data points from a couple of nearly adjacent years can not be expected to show the greenhouse effect.  If you or your readers want to see how the current year compares to long term averages, I suggest that you use the graph on the NSIDC website at</p>
<p><a href="http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png" rel="nofollow">http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png</a></p>
<p>This graph gives current year, record year and average from 1979-2000.  I have found that students understand this graph without giving the change in consecutive years more weight than it deserves.</p>
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		<title>By: danappaloupe</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-198172</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[danappaloupe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 04:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-198172</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[sigh...
In an article about the 2008 sea ice, you claimed that a 28% increase was reason to refute AGW. Which is wrong because of the difference in time scales between climate and weather (ice being a result of weather).
Now there is a 38% DECREASE in sea ice and you are not treating the data the same way. 
I am not saying these is warming, just pointing out the selective treatment of data.

Also I don&#039;t think any climatologists would agree that the data from 2005-2009 can be used to say anything about climate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sigh&#8230;<br />
In an article about the 2008 sea ice, you claimed that a 28% increase was reason to refute AGW. Which is wrong because of the difference in time scales between climate and weather (ice being a result of weather).<br />
Now there is a 38% DECREASE in sea ice and you are not treating the data the same way.<br />
I am not saying these is warming, just pointing out the selective treatment of data.</p>
<p>Also I don&#8217;t think any climatologists would agree that the data from 2005-2009 can be used to say anything about climate.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Dodge</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-194831</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Dodge]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-194831</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I am sure we are simply experiencing a repetition of such a 60 to 70-year warming/cooling cycle which probably has taken place from time immemorial.&quot;
Different species of microfauna grow in open water compared to under ice, and their fossils leave characteristic signatures in the sea bottom sediments. The fossils from open water don&#039;t show up in recent arctic ocean sediment cores, showing his level of melt HASN&#039;T taken place for thousands of years.
&quot;Faunal and lithologic evidence is used to reconstruct paleoceanographic events over the last 4.5 million years. The inception of perennial sea-ice cover is dated at about 0.7 million years.&quot;
Arctic Oceanic Climate in Late Cenozoic Time; Yvonne Herman and David M. Hopkins 
Science 1 August 1980: Vol. 209. no. 4456, pp. 557 - 562; DOI: 10.1126/science.209.4456.557
61 cites]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am sure we are simply experiencing a repetition of such a 60 to 70-year warming/cooling cycle which probably has taken place from time immemorial.&#8221;<br />
Different species of microfauna grow in open water compared to under ice, and their fossils leave characteristic signatures in the sea bottom sediments. The fossils from open water don&#8217;t show up in recent arctic ocean sediment cores, showing his level of melt HASN&#8217;T taken place for thousands of years.<br />
&#8220;Faunal and lithologic evidence is used to reconstruct paleoceanographic events over the last 4.5 million years. The inception of perennial sea-ice cover is dated at about 0.7 million years.&#8221;<br />
Arctic Oceanic Climate in Late Cenozoic Time; Yvonne Herman and David M. Hopkins<br />
Science 1 August 1980: Vol. 209. no. 4456, pp. 557 &#8211; 562; DOI: 10.1126/science.209.4456.557<br />
61 cites</p>
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		<title>By: OlhoNaTV</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-193095</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[OlhoNaTV]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-193095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s Arctic Monkeys!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s Arctic Monkeys!</p>
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		<title>By: Ron de Haan</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-193068</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ron de Haan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-193068</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BS from BBC and NASA :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8272357.stm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BS from BBC and NASA :<br />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8272357.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8272357.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Spector</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192817</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spector]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192817</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If the freeze rate matches last year, the 2009 curve will rise above all previous AMSR-E curves by mid-October.  That has happened once before this year, during a three-week period around the first of May.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the freeze rate matches last year, the 2009 curve will rise above all previous AMSR-E curves by mid-October.  That has happened once before this year, during a three-week period around the first of May.</p>
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		<title>By: philincalifornia</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192792</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[philincalifornia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oooops, that should be &quot;Richard Heg&#039;s link&quot;.  Sorry for almost saddling you with that snip Richard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oooops, that should be &#8220;Richard Heg&#8217;s link&#8221;.  Sorry for almost saddling you with that snip Richard.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: philincalifornia</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192791</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[philincalifornia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Richard Heg (09:29:16) :

This summer Arctic sea ice shrank to only 1.97 square miles (5.1 million square kilometers). The 2009 drop is still the third largest on record, but it&#039;s not as big as some scientists had feared. (Explore a vanishing sea-ice interactive.)

Arctic sea ice typically shrinks in the summer and grows in the winter. It typically reaches its lowest coverage around mid-September.

One-Year Reprieve

Meier cautions the new findings do not mean the Arctic is in recovery, or that global warming is slowing down.

&quot;I look at it as a one-year reprieve,&quot; he said. &quot;I don&#039;t expect that to continue.&quot;

For one thing, this year&#039;s ice is thinner than in the past, and thus more vulnerable to future melt.

&quot;If we get another really warm summer,&quot; Meier said, &quot;we&#039;ll probably be back to where we were in 2007.&quot;
--------------------------------------

....and there was silly old me thinking that Walt could stop bed-wetting this year.

Don&#039;t you love the typo though ??  1.97 square miles.  That&#039;s a pretty small area for the entire population of drowning polar bears to cling on to.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Heg (09:29:16) :</p>
<p>This summer Arctic sea ice shrank to only 1.97 square miles (5.1 million square kilometers). The 2009 drop is still the third largest on record, but it&#8217;s not as big as some scientists had feared. (Explore a vanishing sea-ice interactive.)</p>
<p>Arctic sea ice typically shrinks in the summer and grows in the winter. It typically reaches its lowest coverage around mid-September.</p>
<p>One-Year Reprieve</p>
<p>Meier cautions the new findings do not mean the Arctic is in recovery, or that global warming is slowing down.</p>
<p>&#8220;I look at it as a one-year reprieve,&#8221; he said. &#8220;I don&#8217;t expect that to continue.&#8221;</p>
<p>For one thing, this year&#8217;s ice is thinner than in the past, and thus more vulnerable to future melt.</p>
<p>&#8220;If we get another really warm summer,&#8221; Meier said, &#8220;we&#8217;ll probably be back to where we were in 2007.&#8221;<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>&#8230;.and there was silly old me thinking that Walt could stop bed-wetting this year.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t you love the typo though ??  1.97 square miles.  That&#8217;s a pretty small area for the entire population of drowning polar bears to cling on to.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Heg</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Heg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Toning down the propaganda.
&quot;Arctic Ice to Last Decades Longer Than Thought?&quot;
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/09/090921-arctic-sea-ice.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toning down the propaganda.<br />
&#8220;Arctic Ice to Last Decades Longer Than Thought?&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/09/090921-arctic-sea-ice.html" rel="nofollow">http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/09/090921-arctic-sea-ice.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: ralph</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192518</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ralph]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192518</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;&gt;For an assessment of wind power in practice I suggest 
&gt;&gt;you read my paper at
&gt;&gt; http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/courtn

Agree with every word.

Why have the grid operators not gone on TV (or the media) and said what their problems and concerns are?   Are they being paid not to tell??


.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;For an assessment of wind power in practice I suggest<br />
&gt;&gt;you read my paper at<br />
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/courtn" rel="nofollow">http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/courtn</a></p>
<p>Agree with every word.</p>
<p>Why have the grid operators not gone on TV (or the media) and said what their problems and concerns are?   Are they being paid not to tell??</p>
<p>.</p>
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		<title>By: ralph</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192509</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ralph]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;&gt;&gt;Denmark exceeds 20% wind produced electricity, and 
&gt;&gt;&gt;exceeds 24% consumption of wind electricity in Western 
&gt;&gt;&gt;Denmark, I guess the grid there is all dodgy.

This is a great fallacy.  

In actual fact, Denmark has NEVER used ANY of its wind electricity  -  it is too variable and unreliable.  It sells it to Scandinavia instead.

www.thomastelford.com/journals/DocumentLibrary/CIEN.158.2.66.pdf 

.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;Denmark exceeds 20% wind produced electricity, and<br />
&gt;&gt;&gt;exceeds 24% consumption of wind electricity in Western<br />
&gt;&gt;&gt;Denmark, I guess the grid there is all dodgy.</p>
<p>This is a great fallacy.  </p>
<p>In actual fact, Denmark has NEVER used ANY of its wind electricity  &#8211;  it is too variable and unreliable.  It sells it to Scandinavia instead.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thomastelford.com/journals/DocumentLibrary/CIEN.158.2.66.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.thomastelford.com/journals/DocumentLibrary/CIEN.158.2.66.pdf</a> </p>
<p>.</p>
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		<title>By: Tenuc</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192395</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tenuc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 07:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192395</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pamela Gray (20:18:55) :
&quot;Wonder why the temps are up in the Arctic. It sure hasn’t hurt the continued build up of ice.&quot;

I&#039;ve wonder about this too.  Perhaps it&#039;s something to do with the fact that the temperature of the sea surface will tend to plateau at just below it&#039;s freezing point, so air temperature will rebound.  Could also be something to do with the Arctic vortex, which speeds up as temperatures fall.  If you look through other years it&#039;s not a rare event.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pamela Gray (20:18:55) :<br />
&#8220;Wonder why the temps are up in the Arctic. It sure hasn’t hurt the continued build up of ice.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve wonder about this too.  Perhaps it&#8217;s something to do with the fact that the temperature of the sea surface will tend to plateau at just below it&#8217;s freezing point, so air temperature will rebound.  Could also be something to do with the Arctic vortex, which speeds up as temperatures fall.  If you look through other years it&#8217;s not a rare event.</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192345</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gregory]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 03:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192345</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is there a good reason why the vertical axis on the IARC-JAXA sea ice extent graph always starts at 2e6 rather than zero?  This has the effect of making it look as though the summer minimum in 2007 were half what it had been in 2006, when it was in fact about two thirds.  That is still a huge drop, to be sure, easily sufficient to make Al Gore soil his panties the organic way.  But 2 is close enough to zero (for sufficiently small values of 2, yuk yuk!) that it couldn&#039;t hurt to run the picture down a little further, no?  It&#039;s not like they conserve any ink that way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there a good reason why the vertical axis on the IARC-JAXA sea ice extent graph always starts at 2e6 rather than zero?  This has the effect of making it look as though the summer minimum in 2007 were half what it had been in 2006, when it was in fact about two thirds.  That is still a huge drop, to be sure, easily sufficient to make Al Gore soil his panties the organic way.  But 2 is close enough to zero (for sufficiently small values of 2, yuk yuk!) that it couldn&#8217;t hurt to run the picture down a little further, no?  It&#8217;s not like they conserve any ink that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Pamela Gray</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192343</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pamela Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 03:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wonder what the error bands are for the various ice regions of the Arctic.  Do you suppose that some areas have much wider error bands than others?  Maybe if we were to view the 2 standard deviation specific to each area we might get another clue as to which areas are more variable.  I propose that these areas might also be more sensitive to weather pattern changes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonder what the error bands are for the various ice regions of the Arctic.  Do you suppose that some areas have much wider error bands than others?  Maybe if we were to view the 2 standard deviation specific to each area we might get another clue as to which areas are more variable.  I propose that these areas might also be more sensitive to weather pattern changes.</p>
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		<title>By: Pamela Gray</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/21/2009-arctic-sea-ice-extent-exceeds-2005-for-this-date/#comment-192338</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pamela Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 03:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=11015#comment-192338</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wonder why the temps are up in the Arctic.  It sure hasn&#039;t hurt the continued build up of ice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonder why the temps are up in the Arctic.  It sure hasn&#8217;t hurt the continued build up of ice.</p>
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