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	<title>Comments on: Atmospheric Temperature and Carbon Dioxide: Feedback or Equilibrium?</title>
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	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: R Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-182025</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-182025</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This note with an update is on-line at http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B39QlQ1NSWREZDE0YzkzNGQtOGQzMy00ZmNkLTg3MzktODMxZDAzNmQ4ZDkx&amp;hl=en]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This note with an update is on-line at <a href="http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B39QlQ1NSWREZDE0YzkzNGQtOGQzMy00ZmNkLTg3MzktODMxZDAzNmQ4ZDkx&#038;hl=en" rel="nofollow">http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B39QlQ1NSWREZDE0YzkzNGQtOGQzMy00ZmNkLTg3MzktODMxZDAzNmQ4ZDkx&#038;hl=en</a></p>
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		<title>By: R Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178552</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178552</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, but I just had a look again at the Mauna Loa CO2 record around the time of the Gulf War.  The &quot;Fires of Kuwait&quot; might have added a few ppm during the first half of 1991, but whatever might be there is small compared to the seasonal variation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, but I just had a look again at the Mauna Loa CO2 record around the time of the Gulf War.  The &#8220;Fires of Kuwait&#8221; might have added a few ppm during the first half of 1991, but whatever might be there is small compared to the seasonal variation.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric (skeptic)</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178501</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric (skeptic)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 01:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178501</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[R Taylor (08:54:02)
Thanks for the link.  Yes the 1999 data set is newer, but it leaves out some important information, namely that the CO2 in ice is 1000&#039;s of years younger than the ice.  That fact is critical to understanding that the CO2 readings are smoothed by a unknown multi-1000 year distribution.  If there is another explanation for the dating difference other than smoothing by gas diffusion through snow and less dense ice I would like to hear about it.

With the smoothing hypothesis there is no way to know if spikes with a duration of a few hundred years or less (like the current spike) can occur naturally by simply looking at the ice core readings.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R Taylor (08:54:02)<br />
Thanks for the link.  Yes the 1999 data set is newer, but it leaves out some important information, namely that the CO2 in ice is 1000&#8242;s of years younger than the ice.  That fact is critical to understanding that the CO2 readings are smoothed by a unknown multi-1000 year distribution.  If there is another explanation for the dating difference other than smoothing by gas diffusion through snow and less dense ice I would like to hear about it.</p>
<p>With the smoothing hypothesis there is no way to know if spikes with a duration of a few hundred years or less (like the current spike) can occur naturally by simply looking at the ice core readings.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: R Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178337</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 19:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178337</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find it easier to think of 1900 CE (Christian era, if you like) than 109 BP.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it easier to think of 1900 CE (Christian era, if you like) than 109 BP.</p>
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		<title>By: George E. Smith</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178311</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George E. Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;&quot;&quot;   Kent Gatewood (10:05:41) : 

BCE is before common era and CE is common era. I assume to render the current dating system non christian.   &quot;&quot;&quot;

Total political BS; what is &quot;common&quot; about the CE; and just when is To on the CE time scale ?

BP serves the purpose of establishing a time, and a time that is independent of when mohammad fell into a well or whatever.

The Chinese get along just fine without using our calendar or raising a stink about it.  This CE/BCE silliness is just a creation of the loony left who want to eliminate human beings and their foibles from the account of history.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8221;"   Kent Gatewood (10:05:41) : </p>
<p>BCE is before common era and CE is common era. I assume to render the current dating system non christian.   &#8220;&#8221;"</p>
<p>Total political BS; what is &#8220;common&#8221; about the CE; and just when is To on the CE time scale ?</p>
<p>BP serves the purpose of establishing a time, and a time that is independent of when mohammad fell into a well or whatever.</p>
<p>The Chinese get along just fine without using our calendar or raising a stink about it.  This CE/BCE silliness is just a creation of the loony left who want to eliminate human beings and their foibles from the account of history.</p>
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		<title>By: R Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178301</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kent Gatewood (10:05:41) :

BCE is before common era and CE is common era. I assume to render the current dating system non christian.
------------------------------------
Yes.  While the terms might sound stilted to those accustomed to BC and AD, I think BCE and CE are specified in most style guides for scientific discussion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kent Gatewood (10:05:41) :</p>
<p>BCE is before common era and CE is common era. I assume to render the current dating system non christian.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
Yes.  While the terms might sound stilted to those accustomed to BC and AD, I think BCE and CE are specified in most style guides for scientific discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: R Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178297</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The original papers cited on the Vostok on-line pages give some description regarding technique.  I have taken the numbers as they are, as I have great respect for the science that went into their derivation.  It seems some of the conclusions in the papers were flawed by viewing the numbers through the lens of faulty assumptions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The original papers cited on the Vostok on-line pages give some description regarding technique.  I have taken the numbers as they are, as I have great respect for the science that went into their derivation.  It seems some of the conclusions in the papers were flawed by viewing the numbers through the lens of faulty assumptions.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Gatewood</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178290</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kent Gatewood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BCE is before common era and CE is common era.   I assume to render the current dating system non christian.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BCE is before common era and CE is common era.   I assume to render the current dating system non christian.</p>
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		<title>By: cal</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178275</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178275</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My guess would be that the level of CO2 trapped in ice in Antarctica is a
measure of the level of CO2 dissolved in the ice at several thousand feet that eventually falls as snow. Since the partial pressure is lower at this altitude I would expect the disolved gases to be less. It may well be that this correlates with CO2 measurements made on the surface but I doubt they are the same. Does anyone know it how this works in practice?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My guess would be that the level of CO2 trapped in ice in Antarctica is a<br />
measure of the level of CO2 dissolved in the ice at several thousand feet that eventually falls as snow. Since the partial pressure is lower at this altitude I would expect the disolved gases to be less. It may well be that this correlates with CO2 measurements made on the surface but I doubt they are the same. Does anyone know it how this works in practice?</p>
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		<title>By: R Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178271</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178271</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eric (skeptic) (08:13:46) :

Comparing ice cores with instrument measurements makes no sense. If you smooth the instrument measurements with a 1000+ year running average, then it could begin to make sense. Why, in the ftp link I posted above, is the CO2 in 4050 year old ice only 1700 years old???
_________________________________________________________
We seem to be looking at different data sets.  From the Vostok home page, http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_data.html, If you go to the CO2 page http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_co2.html, your data set seems to be the second one listed, referenced to 1987.  I used the first data set, referenced to 1999, that seems to be more extensive.  All the temperature data I used is from the isotope/temperature page, http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_isotope.html.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric (skeptic) (08:13:46) :</p>
<p>Comparing ice cores with instrument measurements makes no sense. If you smooth the instrument measurements with a 1000+ year running average, then it could begin to make sense. Why, in the ftp link I posted above, is the CO2 in 4050 year old ice only 1700 years old???<br />
_________________________________________________________<br />
We seem to be looking at different data sets.  From the Vostok home page, <a href="http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_data.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_data.html</a>, If you go to the CO2 page <a href="http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_co2.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_co2.html</a>, your data set seems to be the second one listed, referenced to 1987.  I used the first data set, referenced to 1999, that seems to be more extensive.  All the temperature data I used is from the isotope/temperature page, <a href="http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_isotope.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_isotope.html</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric (skeptic)</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178265</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric (skeptic)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178265</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Comparing ice cores with instrument measurements makes no sense.  If you smooth the instrument measurements with a 1000+ year running average, then it could begin to make sense.  Why, in the ftp link I posted above, is the CO2 in 4050 year old ice only 1700 years old???]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comparing ice cores with instrument measurements makes no sense.  If you smooth the instrument measurements with a 1000+ year running average, then it could begin to make sense.  Why, in the ftp link I posted above, is the CO2 in 4050 year old ice only 1700 years old???</p>
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		<title>By: R Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178199</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[stumpy (22:49:55) :

Get it published, excellent stuff. I think many here have long been aware that outgassing of Co2 is a natural process following a rise in T and this supports that position.

I understand the Vostock ice core came from the Antarctic, I would imagine this part of the globe would not show the MWP or LIA due to the large ocean cover in the southern hemisphere and the antarctics self sustaining climate.

I would excercise care though when comparing modern Mauna Loa values with Vostock values, as they cannot be compared. One value is from a cold environment where levels are low due to absorbtion and the other is in an area where the sea would be outgassing Co2 due to warmer SST.

Hence they cannot be compared (though they often are to suggest current Co2 levels are unsual). However, excellent work!
----------------------------------------
Thanks.  Modern CO2 measurements in Antarctica (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/csiro/csiro-spo.html) do seem comparable to those at Mauna Loa.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>stumpy (22:49:55) :</p>
<p>Get it published, excellent stuff. I think many here have long been aware that outgassing of Co2 is a natural process following a rise in T and this supports that position.</p>
<p>I understand the Vostock ice core came from the Antarctic, I would imagine this part of the globe would not show the MWP or LIA due to the large ocean cover in the southern hemisphere and the antarctics self sustaining climate.</p>
<p>I would excercise care though when comparing modern Mauna Loa values with Vostock values, as they cannot be compared. One value is from a cold environment where levels are low due to absorbtion and the other is in an area where the sea would be outgassing Co2 due to warmer SST.</p>
<p>Hence they cannot be compared (though they often are to suggest current Co2 levels are unsual). However, excellent work!<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
Thanks.  Modern CO2 measurements in Antarctica (<a href="http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/csiro/csiro-spo.html" rel="nofollow">http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/csiro/csiro-spo.html</a>) do seem comparable to those at Mauna Loa.</p>
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		<title>By: R Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178197</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178197</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Justin Sane (20:53:59) :

“The most recent CO2 determination from the ice-core has a date of about 340 BCE. We can add an early-industrial-era value of 290 ppm at 1800 CE ”

So the line you drew from 340 BCE to 1800 CE was determined by what? It could have been much flatter and then turned up suddenly as in a logarithmic display. Then there is no need to find out why CO2 was so high 5000 years ago, but why it may have accelerated around 1800 CE, which conveniently matches with the industrial revolution.
______________________________________________
The equilibrium model indicates that about 8000 years are required for CO2 to decline in response to a drop in temperature.  There might have been a trivial decline in temperature between 340 BC and 1800 AD, so there is no reason to think that temperature caused a significant decline in CO2 during that interval.  Between those dates, however, the Romans paved and cemented their way through much of Europe and the middle-East, the Silk Road was established to China, where the Hans were building a very long wall, Islam spread from Spain to Indonesia, Russia emerged as an organized state, the Incas, Mayas and Aztecs built empires, global trade commenced and intensive agriculture spread to the Americas.  All of these things might have shaken a little more CO2 loose from the soil.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin Sane (20:53:59) :</p>
<p>“The most recent CO2 determination from the ice-core has a date of about 340 BCE. We can add an early-industrial-era value of 290 ppm at 1800 CE ”</p>
<p>So the line you drew from 340 BCE to 1800 CE was determined by what? It could have been much flatter and then turned up suddenly as in a logarithmic display. Then there is no need to find out why CO2 was so high 5000 years ago, but why it may have accelerated around 1800 CE, which conveniently matches with the industrial revolution.<br />
______________________________________________<br />
The equilibrium model indicates that about 8000 years are required for CO2 to decline in response to a drop in temperature.  There might have been a trivial decline in temperature between 340 BC and 1800 AD, so there is no reason to think that temperature caused a significant decline in CO2 during that interval.  Between those dates, however, the Romans paved and cemented their way through much of Europe and the middle-East, the Silk Road was established to China, where the Hans were building a very long wall, Islam spread from Spain to Indonesia, Russia emerged as an organized state, the Incas, Mayas and Aztecs built empires, global trade commenced and intensive agriculture spread to the Americas.  All of these things might have shaken a little more CO2 loose from the soil.</p>
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		<title>By: stumpy</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178144</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stumpy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178144</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Get it published, excellent stuff. I think many here have long been aware that outgassing of Co2 is a natural process following a rise in T and this supports that position. 

I understand the Vostock ice core came from the Antarctic, I would imagine this part of the globe would not show the MWP or LIA due to the large ocean cover in the southern hemisphere and the antarctics self sustaining climate.

I would excercise care though when comparing modern Mauna Loa values with Vostock values, as they cannot be compared. One value is from a cold environment where levels are low due to absorbtion and the other is in an area where the sea would be outgassing Co2 due to warmer SST. 

Hence they cannot be compared (though they often are to suggest current Co2 levels are unsual). However, excellent work!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get it published, excellent stuff. I think many here have long been aware that outgassing of Co2 is a natural process following a rise in T and this supports that position. </p>
<p>I understand the Vostock ice core came from the Antarctic, I would imagine this part of the globe would not show the MWP or LIA due to the large ocean cover in the southern hemisphere and the antarctics self sustaining climate.</p>
<p>I would excercise care though when comparing modern Mauna Loa values with Vostock values, as they cannot be compared. One value is from a cold environment where levels are low due to absorbtion and the other is in an area where the sea would be outgassing Co2 due to warmer SST. </p>
<p>Hence they cannot be compared (though they often are to suggest current Co2 levels are unsual). However, excellent work!</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Sane</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/24/atmospheric-temperature-and-carbon-dioxide-feedback-or-equilibrium/#comment-178108</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin Sane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 03:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10224#comment-178108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The most recent CO2 determination from the ice-core has a date of about 340 BCE. We can add an early-industrial-era value of 290 ppm at 1800 CE &quot;

So the line you drew from 340 BCE to 1800 CE was determined by what? It could have been much flatter and then turned up suddenly as in a logarithmic display. Then there is no need to find out why CO2 was so high 5000 years ago, but why it may have accelerated around 1800 CE, which conveniently matches with the industrial revolution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The most recent CO2 determination from the ice-core has a date of about 340 BCE. We can add an early-industrial-era value of 290 ppm at 1800 CE &#8221;</p>
<p>So the line you drew from 340 BCE to 1800 CE was determined by what? It could have been much flatter and then turned up suddenly as in a logarithmic display. Then there is no need to find out why CO2 was so high 5000 years ago, but why it may have accelerated around 1800 CE, which conveniently matches with the industrial revolution.</p>
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