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	<title>Comments on: Solar Cycle 24 lack of sunspots caused by &#8220;sluggish solar jet stream&#8221; &#8211; returning soon?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: Bill P</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-150231</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill P]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 03:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-150231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;James F. Evans (09:07:57) : 

Bob,

Part of the problem is that there are so many agenda’s running around we don’t know who is qualified to review the science or not.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

James: Welcome to the club.  

You might start by acknowledging that there are a lot of physics neophytes out here (like me, for instance) who are just trying to learn something.  

Why not make a distinction between what you know (and giving attribution), what is theoretical, and your pet theories (whicy you may identify as &quot;my pet theories.&quot;)

Hope this helps.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>James F. Evans (09:07:57) : </p>
<p>Bob,</p>
<p>Part of the problem is that there are so many agenda’s running around we don’t know who is qualified to review the science or not.</p></blockquote>
<p>James: Welcome to the club.  </p>
<p>You might start by acknowledging that there are a lot of physics neophytes out here (like me, for instance) who are just trying to learn something.  </p>
<p>Why not make a distinction between what you know (and giving attribution), what is theoretical, and your pet theories (whicy you may identify as &#8220;my pet theories.&#8221;)</p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149749</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard (07:25:19) :
gary gulrud (06:18:41) :
&lt;i&gt;Scientists write the grants but engineers(often the same individual in other disciplines) do the work and the abstract need bear no certain relation to the reality.&lt;/i&gt;
An important element of the TIM design is that the instrument cavity is kept at a constant temperature [31C] and has very high thermal conductivity.The Electrical Substitution Radiometers are thermally conductive cavities with high absorptivity across the entire solar spectrum, which ensures collection of nearly all the entering sunlight, converting it into thermal energy in the cavity. The very high conductivity quickly [reacting to changes in 2 seconds] transports the thermal energy to the sensors that maintain constant temperature and thus thermal equilibrium at all times. The cavities are small [size of your thumb weighing less than 16 gram] and the thermal fluctuations from the set point temperature are very small [of the order of a millionth of a degree]. If you study the engineering specs carefully, you cannot deny that there are all reasons to expect an accurate measurement. And that is what I was referring to.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leif Svalgaard (07:25:19) :<br />
gary gulrud (06:18:41) :<br />
<i>Scientists write the grants but engineers(often the same individual in other disciplines) do the work and the abstract need bear no certain relation to the reality.</i><br />
An important element of the TIM design is that the instrument cavity is kept at a constant temperature [31C] and has very high thermal conductivity.The Electrical Substitution Radiometers are thermally conductive cavities with high absorptivity across the entire solar spectrum, which ensures collection of nearly all the entering sunlight, converting it into thermal energy in the cavity. The very high conductivity quickly [reacting to changes in 2 seconds] transports the thermal energy to the sensors that maintain constant temperature and thus thermal equilibrium at all times. The cavities are small [size of your thumb weighing less than 16 gram] and the thermal fluctuations from the set point temperature are very small [of the order of a millionth of a degree]. If you study the engineering specs carefully, you cannot deny that there are all reasons to expect an accurate measurement. And that is what I was referring to.</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149674</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[gary gulrud (06:18:41) :
&lt;i&gt;Scientists write the grants but engineers(often the same individual in other disciplines) do the work and the abstract need bear no certain relation to the reality.&lt;/i&gt;
I take it that you are asserting that the engineers that build the SORCE TIM instrument didn&#039;t know what they were doing either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gary gulrud (06:18:41) :<br />
<i>Scientists write the grants but engineers(often the same individual in other disciplines) do the work and the abstract need bear no certain relation to the reality.</i><br />
I take it that you are asserting that the engineers that build the SORCE TIM instrument didn&#8217;t know what they were doing either.</p>
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		<title>By: gary gulrud</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149641</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gary gulrud]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;&lt;i&gt;Leif, you beat me to it. I was hoping Gary would discover his error.&lt;/i&gt;

No chance!&quot;

Actually I&#039;ve designed and implemented the electronics, DSP firmware, drivers and process control software on a number of temperature apps over the years-beginning with a 500 degree C ceramic circuitboard firing furnace- variously running CPM, thru PSOS/Unix to Windows. 

If I don&#039;t know what I&#039;m talking about a programmer(see Brinch Hansen, Scherrer or Straka), sometime &quot;scientist&quot; certainly does not.  Scientists write the grants but engineers(often the same individual in other disciplines) do the work and the abstract need bear no certain relation to the reality.

Spare us the vaudeville act,  please.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>Leif, you beat me to it. I was hoping Gary would discover his error.</i></p>
<p>No chance!&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually I&#8217;ve designed and implemented the electronics, DSP firmware, drivers and process control software on a number of temperature apps over the years-beginning with a 500 degree C ceramic circuitboard firing furnace- variously running CPM, thru PSOS/Unix to Windows. </p>
<p>If I don&#8217;t know what I&#8217;m talking about a programmer(see Brinch Hansen, Scherrer or Straka), sometime &#8220;scientist&#8221; certainly does not.  Scientists write the grants but engineers(often the same individual in other disciplines) do the work and the abstract need bear no certain relation to the reality.</p>
<p>Spare us the vaudeville act,  please.</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149627</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul Vaughan (00:29:06) :
&lt;i&gt;It is also sensible (&amp; efficient) to let a matter go to avert dissonance.&lt;/i&gt;
No, this matter strikes at my integrity. It started with:
&lt;i&gt;Regarding the central premise driving Dr. Charvatova’s research [considered collectively] – as I said Leif: “Anyone planning to attack it should – in fairness – first make sure they are clear on what it is.”&lt;/i&gt;
Now, either you tell me what it is, or you sensibly (and efficiently) retract the above statement.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Vaughan (00:29:06) :<br />
<i>It is also sensible (&amp; efficient) to let a matter go to avert dissonance.</i><br />
No, this matter strikes at my integrity. It started with:<br />
<i>Regarding the central premise driving Dr. Charvatova’s research [considered collectively] – as I said Leif: “Anyone planning to attack it should – in fairness – first make sure they are clear on what it is.”</i><br />
Now, either you tell me what it is, or you sensibly (and efficiently) retract the above statement.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Vaughan</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Vaughan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: Leif Svalgaard (18:20:38)

It is also sensible (&amp; efficient) to let a matter go to avert dissonance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Leif Svalgaard (18:20:38)</p>
<p>It is also sensible (&amp; efficient) to let a matter go to avert dissonance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149365</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul Vaughan (17:51:46) :
Re: Leif Svalgaard (17:28:17)
&lt;i&gt;Reiterating: You misunderstand.&lt;/i&gt;
The &lt;i&gt;proper&lt;/i&gt; way to deal with my misunderstanding is the tell me precisely what I misunderstood and how it should have been understood.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Vaughan (17:51:46) :<br />
Re: Leif Svalgaard (17:28:17)<br />
<i>Reiterating: You misunderstand.</i><br />
The <i>proper</i> way to deal with my misunderstanding is the tell me precisely what I misunderstood and how it should have been understood.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Vaughan</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149344</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Vaughan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: Leif Svalgaard (17:28:17)

Reiterating: You misunderstand.

Perhaps there will be future opportunities to discuss this fruitfully - for example if new &amp; important information comes to our attention.

Back to research ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Leif Svalgaard (17:28:17)</p>
<p>Reiterating: You misunderstand.</p>
<p>Perhaps there will be future opportunities to discuss this fruitfully &#8211; for example if new &amp; important information comes to our attention.</p>
<p>Back to research &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149327</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul Vaughan (17:21:14) :
&lt;i&gt;Research takes priority over fruitless online exchanges. (Fruitful online exchanges, by sharp contrast, spark creativity.)&lt;/i&gt;
So you are back to your old modus operandi. Try a fruitful exchange, for a change, and enlighten me what &#039;central thesis&#039; I had missed or misunderstood. Remember, I feel some responsibility for her work, having served as a reviewer of several papers [and rejected some - perhaps underservedly because I missed to pay attention to &#039;her central thesis&#039; that you obviously have picked up, but refuse in good ol&#039;e style to tell me]]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Vaughan (17:21:14) :<br />
<i>Research takes priority over fruitless online exchanges. (Fruitful online exchanges, by sharp contrast, spark creativity.)</i><br />
So you are back to your old modus operandi. Try a fruitful exchange, for a change, and enlighten me what &#8216;central thesis&#8217; I had missed or misunderstood. Remember, I feel some responsibility for her work, having served as a reviewer of several papers [and rejected some - perhaps underservedly because I missed to pay attention to 'her central thesis' that you obviously have picked up, but refuse in good ol'e style to tell me]]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Vaughan</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149319</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Vaughan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: Leif Svalgaard (05:22:20)

Research takes priority over fruitless online exchanges.  (Fruitful online exchanges, by sharp contrast, spark creativity.)

I hope your research is going well.  (Society is depending on you - I wish you efficiency.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Leif Svalgaard (05:22:20)</p>
<p>Research takes priority over fruitless online exchanges.  (Fruitful online exchanges, by sharp contrast, spark creativity.)</p>
<p>I hope your research is going well.  (Society is depending on you &#8211; I wish you efficiency.)</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149047</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149047</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James F. Evans (16:47:46) :
&lt;i&gt;the original developer of MHD (and “frozen in” magnetic field lines), Hannes Alfven, later unequivocally rejected this approach as contradicting empirical results he achieved in the laboratory.&lt;/i&gt;

Here is a laboratory experiment showing the existence of frozen-in field and magnetic reconnection:
http://www.cfn.ist.utl.pt/EPS2001/fin/pdf/OR.07.pdf and I quote: &quot;Fig. 2, in which the density evolution is represented as a function of magnetic flux Ψ and time. The density contours follow the evolution of Ψ, demonstrating that the plasma is frozen-in to the magnetic field.&quot; 
One of the issues with real plasmas is a phenomenon called &#039;anomalous resistivity&#039; that allows reconnection to occur at a much faster rate than in an MHD formulation. In the ideal MHD case [which is not realized in Nature] reconnection cannot occur.
 
What Alfven was rejecting were some misuses of the concept, not the concept itself.

But again, all of this is just fluff serving to obscure the wrong idea of there somehow being much more energy flowing to us that we can observe [but that somehow, nevertheless, influences the climate].]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James F. Evans (16:47:46) :<br />
<i>the original developer of MHD (and “frozen in” magnetic field lines), Hannes Alfven, later unequivocally rejected this approach as contradicting empirical results he achieved in the laboratory.</i></p>
<p>Here is a laboratory experiment showing the existence of frozen-in field and magnetic reconnection:<br />
<a href="http://www.cfn.ist.utl.pt/EPS2001/fin/pdf/OR.07.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cfn.ist.utl.pt/EPS2001/fin/pdf/OR.07.pdf</a> and I quote: &#8220;Fig. 2, in which the density evolution is represented as a function of magnetic flux Ψ and time. The density contours follow the evolution of Ψ, demonstrating that the plasma is frozen-in to the magnetic field.&#8221;<br />
One of the issues with real plasmas is a phenomenon called &#8216;anomalous resistivity&#8217; that allows reconnection to occur at a much faster rate than in an MHD formulation. In the ideal MHD case [which is not realized in Nature] reconnection cannot occur.</p>
<p>What Alfven was rejecting were some misuses of the concept, not the concept itself.</p>
<p>But again, all of this is just fluff serving to obscure the wrong idea of there somehow being much more energy flowing to us that we can observe [but that somehow, nevertheless, influences the climate].</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-149016</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-149016</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James F. Evans (16:47:46) :
&lt;i&gt;I’m referring to electric current (the flow of electrons and ions via the electromotive force), not electromagnetic waves,i.e., visible light, X-rays, and so on.

Dr. Eugene Parker: “In the laboratory we create static magnetic fields by driving an electric current through a coil of wire. The emf [electromotive force] and the current are clearly the cause of the magnetic field.” (p. 25, Conversations)&lt;/i&gt;

Please, your understanding of physics is so rudimentary that it is better for you to begin to &lt;i&gt;learn&lt;/i&gt; something, instead of parroting things you do not understand. The very next paragraph of Parker&#039;s is what you need to understand. But perhaps a simpler case: that of a dynamo: http://www.explainthatstuff.com/generators.html
where the mechanical energy that rotates a magnetic generates a current.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James F. Evans (16:47:46) :<br />
<i>I’m referring to electric current (the flow of electrons and ions via the electromotive force), not electromagnetic waves,i.e., visible light, X-rays, and so on.</p>
<p>Dr. Eugene Parker: “In the laboratory we create static magnetic fields by driving an electric current through a coil of wire. The emf [electromotive force] and the current are clearly the cause of the magnetic field.” (p. 25, Conversations)</i></p>
<p>Please, your understanding of physics is so rudimentary that it is better for you to begin to <i>learn</i> something, instead of parroting things you do not understand. The very next paragraph of Parker&#8217;s is what you need to understand. But perhaps a simpler case: that of a dynamo: <a href="http://www.explainthatstuff.com/generators.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.explainthatstuff.com/generators.html</a><br />
where the mechanical energy that rotates a magnetic generates a current.</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-148981</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-148981</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul Vaughan (01:29:12) :
Re: Leif Svalgaard (21:20:59)
&lt;i&gt;You misunderstand.&lt;/i&gt;
Well, then explain so I can understand]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Vaughan (01:29:12) :<br />
Re: Leif Svalgaard (21:20:59)<br />
<i>You misunderstand.</i><br />
Well, then explain so I can understand</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Paul Vaughan</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-148917</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Vaughan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-148917</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: Leif Svalgaard (21:20:59)

You misunderstand.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Leif Svalgaard (21:20:59)</p>
<p>You misunderstand.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/17/solar-cycle-24-lack-of-sunspots-caused-by-sluggish-solar-jet-stream-returning-soon/#comment-148849</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif Svalgaard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=8598#comment-148849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul Vaughan (14:29:45) :
&lt;i&gt;Investigating relationships possibly involving SIM is worthwhile, in part since future SIM can be accurately predicted.&lt;/i&gt;
So what is her &lt;i&gt;central thesis&lt;/i&gt;?
The orbits of the three bodies of Alpha Centauri  are also predictable, but are unlikely to have any influence. Predictability in itself does nor seem to be a reason to investigate anything. Or are we back to you still not want to tell us [me]?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Vaughan (14:29:45) :<br />
<i>Investigating relationships possibly involving SIM is worthwhile, in part since future SIM can be accurately predicted.</i><br />
So what is her <i>central thesis</i>?<br />
The orbits of the three bodies of Alpha Centauri  are also predictable, but are unlikely to have any influence. Predictability in itself does nor seem to be a reason to investigate anything. Or are we back to you still not want to tell us [me]?</p>
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