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	<title>Comments on: How not to measure temperature, part 86: when in Rome, don&#8217;t do as the Romans do.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: Paolo M.</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-109094</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paolo M.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-109094</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No oil for pacifists:
sorry, I ment 16239.
WMO codex for Italy start from 160xx from the far North to 16490 for the southern island of Lampedusa. Sardinia has 165xx.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No oil for pacifists:<br />
sorry, I ment 16239.<br />
WMO codex for Italy start from 160xx from the far North to 16490 for the southern island of Lampedusa. Sardinia has 165xx.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike M</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107786</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107786</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[J Campbell (21:20:48)  Not &#039;wrong&#039; temperature data - cold temperature data.   In general an incorrect reading saying that it is warmer than it actually is will not cause any problem in aviation excepting perhaps icing or something associated to freezing.  Example, if you think its 10 degrees warmer than it really is then your TO distance will be shorter than you thought it would be, your load capacity will be greater, your engine performance better, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J Campbell (21:20:48)  Not &#8216;wrong&#8217; temperature data &#8211; cold temperature data.   In general an incorrect reading saying that it is warmer than it actually is will not cause any problem in aviation excepting perhaps icing or something associated to freezing.  Example, if you think its 10 degrees warmer than it really is then your TO distance will be shorter than you thought it would be, your load capacity will be greater, your engine performance better, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike McMillan</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107619</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike McMillan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107619</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael Whelan (23:13:29) :

The Hugo-winning artist ?

&lt;i&gt;Aircraft aside, what is the effect on the weather station of a 30,000 square metre x 4 metre thick slab of concrete on one side and a 50,000 square metre carpark on the other?&lt;/i&gt;

Concrete on the ramps and taxiways generally runs  2-3 ft ( &lt;1 meter) thick on a base of crushed rock.  I have heard of 4 meter thickness in the touchdown zones of some runways.  Gonna be warming, though, holding heat into the night.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Whelan (23:13:29) :</p>
<p>The Hugo-winning artist ?</p>
<p><i>Aircraft aside, what is the effect on the weather station of a 30,000 square metre x 4 metre thick slab of concrete on one side and a 50,000 square metre carpark on the other?</i></p>
<p>Concrete on the ramps and taxiways generally runs  2-3 ft ( &lt;1 meter) thick on a base of crushed rock.  I have heard of 4 meter thickness in the touchdown zones of some runways.  Gonna be warming, though, holding heat into the night.</p>
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		<title>By: No Oil for Pacifists</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107598</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[No Oil for Pacifists]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 01:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Could Paolo have meant WHO ID # 16239, not 16139?  I find the former, but not the latter, in the WMO flatfile, NCDC station locate, and ECA&amp;D list.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could Paolo have meant WHO ID # 16239, not 16139?  I find the former, but not the latter, in the WMO flatfile, NCDC station locate, and ECA&amp;D list.</p>
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		<title>By: leebert</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107322</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[leebert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh no! This revelation might cause Italy to form a new government!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh no! This revelation might cause Italy to form a new government!</p>
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		<title>By: Pamela Gray</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107299</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pamela Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My boyfriend was topside on the USS Constellation during Vietnam.  A jet took off and blew debri someone had left on the deck into the side of his head, knocked him out, and broke his jaw.  No cuts, just a bruise, and he didn&#039;t know his jaw was broken (or his head banged around) till he got back from a night&#039;s leave looking very sick.  He ended up in the ship&#039;s infirmary for 90 days.  Afterwards he had developed left over traumatic brain injury changes in his thinking and emotional state, eventually leading to his decision to leave the military just short of 6 years.  That truck is visible.  A small wrench or rock can kill you just as surely.  Now you know why swabbing the deck is probably one of the most important jobs on a carrier.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My boyfriend was topside on the USS Constellation during Vietnam.  A jet took off and blew debri someone had left on the deck into the side of his head, knocked him out, and broke his jaw.  No cuts, just a bruise, and he didn&#8217;t know his jaw was broken (or his head banged around) till he got back from a night&#8217;s leave looking very sick.  He ended up in the ship&#8217;s infirmary for 90 days.  Afterwards he had developed left over traumatic brain injury changes in his thinking and emotional state, eventually leading to his decision to leave the military just short of 6 years.  That truck is visible.  A small wrench or rock can kill you just as surely.  Now you know why swabbing the deck is probably one of the most important jobs on a carrier.</p>
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		<title>By: John Marshall</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107219</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Marshall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107219</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good film clip. Yes it is true as I have seen it happen, with someone driving the vehicle as well. A good reason to use satellites to measure global surface temperatures.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good film clip. Yes it is true as I have seen it happen, with someone driving the vehicle as well. A good reason to use satellites to measure global surface temperatures.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Whelan</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107180</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Whelan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107180</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Aircraft aside, what is the effect on the weather station of a 30,000 square metre x 4 metre thick slab of concrete on one side and a 50,000 square metre carpark on the other?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aircraft aside, what is the effect on the weather station of a 30,000 square metre x 4 metre thick slab of concrete on one side and a 50,000 square metre carpark on the other?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike McMillan</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107139</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike McMillan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 05:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[J Campbell (04:17:08) :&lt;i&gt;
Usual suspects for takeoff problems are:
1. Improper loading - Total not CG position
2.Density altitude with temp being important 5C has given me a tight feeling in the rear
3. Donk problems&lt;/i&gt;

Disagreeable me, sorry.

1. CG (center of gravity) position is definitely a problem.  All freight containers are weighed and known, but containers may still be loaded aboard in an incorrect order, and as I said, that makes the aircraft handle in unexpected ways, resulting in over-rotation and tailstrikes.  An overweight takeoff will require more rotation, but at a normal rate and that shouldn&#039;t get a tailstrike.

2. Airlines have temperature/pressure/gross weight  takeoff charts computed for every runway they use at an airport; it&#039;s all part of their certification for operations at an airport.  Aside from the go/no-go aspect, pilots use the charts for reduced power takeoffs whenever they can, which is easier on the engines.  Throttles are set for the highest temperature on a runway chart that allows safe takeoff, which produces more power than you actually need but less power than you actually have available.  This leaves a good reserve of power in case of difficulty.  The actual density altitude doesn&#039;t enter in for reduced power, and for full power takeoffs, the pilots use their own ambient temperature gauge.

3. Not a clue what a donk is.
.

ralph ellis (07:58:08) :&lt;i&gt;
The heat behind a taxiing A320 or 737 is easily detectable at the distances involved. When an aircraft taxis into a stand opposite ours (a similar distance) you can feel the heat, which would equate (I suppose) to 50 - 60 oc.&lt;/i&gt;

That would be a bit over my 20 C above ambient estimate, assuming you mean actual temp and not 50 C above ambient.  I don&#039;t have my charts handy, but really hot temps as far aft as the Ciampino  Stevenson screens are, would take higher power and damaging wind speeds. 
.

I guess I&#039;ll hit the &#039;Submit&#039; button, then check for typos.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J Campbell (04:17:08) :<i><br />
Usual suspects for takeoff problems are:<br />
1. Improper loading &#8211; Total not CG position<br />
2.Density altitude with temp being important 5C has given me a tight feeling in the rear<br />
3. Donk problems</i></p>
<p>Disagreeable me, sorry.</p>
<p>1. CG (center of gravity) position is definitely a problem.  All freight containers are weighed and known, but containers may still be loaded aboard in an incorrect order, and as I said, that makes the aircraft handle in unexpected ways, resulting in over-rotation and tailstrikes.  An overweight takeoff will require more rotation, but at a normal rate and that shouldn&#8217;t get a tailstrike.</p>
<p>2. Airlines have temperature/pressure/gross weight  takeoff charts computed for every runway they use at an airport; it&#8217;s all part of their certification for operations at an airport.  Aside from the go/no-go aspect, pilots use the charts for reduced power takeoffs whenever they can, which is easier on the engines.  Throttles are set for the highest temperature on a runway chart that allows safe takeoff, which produces more power than you actually need but less power than you actually have available.  This leaves a good reserve of power in case of difficulty.  The actual density altitude doesn&#8217;t enter in for reduced power, and for full power takeoffs, the pilots use their own ambient temperature gauge.</p>
<p>3. Not a clue what a donk is.<br />
.</p>
<p>ralph ellis (07:58:08) :<i><br />
The heat behind a taxiing A320 or 737 is easily detectable at the distances involved. When an aircraft taxis into a stand opposite ours (a similar distance) you can feel the heat, which would equate (I suppose) to 50 &#8211; 60 oc.</i></p>
<p>That would be a bit over my 20 C above ambient estimate, assuming you mean actual temp and not 50 C above ambient.  I don&#8217;t have my charts handy, but really hot temps as far aft as the Ciampino  Stevenson screens are, would take higher power and damaging wind speeds.<br />
.</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;ll hit the &#8216;Submit&#8217; button, then check for typos.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Minto</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107093</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Keith Minto]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 02:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107093</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you look at the link provided by Philip_B and at the Colour map of Australia,it seems that any warming trend in South Eastern Australia is either +0.5c or -0.5c over 100years, just where most of Australia&#039;s population lives and where most of the sensors are. The &#039;hot-spot&#039; in the centre may have been picked by one sensor!
This tiny  SE change surely must be within measurement error.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you look at the link provided by Philip_B and at the Colour map of Australia,it seems that any warming trend in South Eastern Australia is either +0.5c or -0.5c over 100years, just where most of Australia&#8217;s population lives and where most of the sensors are. The &#8216;hot-spot&#8217; in the centre may have been picked by one sensor!<br />
This tiny  SE change surely must be within measurement error.</p>
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		<title>By: Adolfo Giurfa</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107073</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adolfo Giurfa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 02:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is a &quot;Club of Rome&quot; station!!
&lt;i&gt;&quot;Che bella cosa e na giornatta di sole!&quot;&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a &#8220;Club of Rome&#8221; station!!<br />
<i>&#8220;Che bella cosa e na giornatta di sole!&#8221;</i></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-107030</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 00:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-107030</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;2.Density altitude with temp being important 5C has given me a tight feeling in the rear&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d be sure to see a doctor about that if I were you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>2.Density altitude with temp being important 5C has given me a tight feeling in the rear</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;d be sure to see a doctor about that if I were you.</p>
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		<title>By: James P</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-106961</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James P]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-106961</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It doesn&#039;t affect the main thrust of this article (pun intended) but I note that the truck being blown into the water by jet exhaust appears to lack an engine! Without that modification, it might have stayed on the ground...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t affect the main thrust of this article (pun intended) but I note that the truck being blown into the water by jet exhaust appears to lack an engine! Without that modification, it might have stayed on the ground&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Paolo M.</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-106865</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paolo M.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-106865</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m quite sure that when the station was put there, it was under WMO requirements.
Then times go and today you add a truck parking lot, tomorrow a taxiway and the day after a plane parking area and so on.
When a whole air field is compromised, often also by city espansion, I think nothing remains to do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m quite sure that when the station was put there, it was under WMO requirements.<br />
Then times go and today you add a truck parking lot, tomorrow a taxiway and the day after a plane parking area and so on.<br />
When a whole air field is compromised, often also by city espansion, I think nothing remains to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Paolo M.</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/28/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-86-when-in-rome-dont-do-as-the-romans-do/#comment-106864</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paolo M.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=6610#comment-106864</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you Anthony for posting about Roma/Ciampino and more others later.

Ciampino is a weather station whose daily data are included in the ECA&amp;D dataset and freely available:
http://eca.knmi.nl./

No doubt that the station above is Roma/Ciampino whose WMO codex is 16139.
The GHCN co-ordinates must be wrong.
Moreover, ECA&amp;D has daily data till 2005 and I have got data till yesterday.
You can find real time daily data at the site of the Italian Air Force Met. Service.
For example, right now, at 20:00 UTC you can read Roma/Ciampino temperature extremes taken yesterday at this link:
http://www.meteoam.it/modules/tempoInAtto/infoStazione.php?icao=LIRA

Tmin was 8.4° at 01:50 and Tmax was 18.8° at 14:20.
These data are published every day at 09:00 UTC.

That page reports also today&#039;s daytime high (published at 18:00) and nighttime low (at 06:00), that are different with respct to daily extremes.
Today&#039;s low was 13.4°; the high was 20.0°, thanks to scirocco weather.

Before taking any climate information out from a weather station, there is no other way (at least a seriuos way) that doing that kind of work that Anthony started for the US.

Of great importance, of course, it would be also to know the station history.
Ciampino, for example, had for sure a lot of air traffic increment when was opened to civil air traffic and wide plane parking lot had to have been added.
Survey like this allows to discriminate bad or dubious stations from better ones.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Anthony for posting about Roma/Ciampino and more others later.</p>
<p>Ciampino is a weather station whose daily data are included in the ECA&amp;D dataset and freely available:<br />
<a href="http://eca.knmi.nl./" rel="nofollow">http://eca.knmi.nl./</a></p>
<p>No doubt that the station above is Roma/Ciampino whose WMO codex is 16139.<br />
The GHCN co-ordinates must be wrong.<br />
Moreover, ECA&amp;D has daily data till 2005 and I have got data till yesterday.<br />
You can find real time daily data at the site of the Italian Air Force Met. Service.<br />
For example, right now, at 20:00 UTC you can read Roma/Ciampino temperature extremes taken yesterday at this link:<br />
<a href="http://www.meteoam.it/modules/tempoInAtto/infoStazione.php?icao=LIRA" rel="nofollow">http://www.meteoam.it/modules/tempoInAtto/infoStazione.php?icao=LIRA</a></p>
<p>Tmin was 8.4° at 01:50 and Tmax was 18.8° at 14:20.<br />
These data are published every day at 09:00 UTC.</p>
<p>That page reports also today&#8217;s daytime high (published at 18:00) and nighttime low (at 06:00), that are different with respct to daily extremes.<br />
Today&#8217;s low was 13.4°; the high was 20.0°, thanks to scirocco weather.</p>
<p>Before taking any climate information out from a weather station, there is no other way (at least a seriuos way) that doing that kind of work that Anthony started for the US.</p>
<p>Of great importance, of course, it would be also to know the station history.<br />
Ciampino, for example, had for sure a lot of air traffic increment when was opened to civil air traffic and wide plane parking lot had to have been added.<br />
Survey like this allows to discriminate bad or dubious stations from better ones.</p>
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