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	<title>Comments on: GISS, NOAA, GHCN and the odd Russian temperature anomaly &#8211; &#8220;It&#8217;s all pipes!&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/</link>
	<description>Commentary on puzzling things in life, nature, science, weather, climate change, technology, and recent news by Anthony Watts</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:06:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: daphne</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-59742</link>
		<dc:creator>daphne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-59742</guid>
		<description>sound entirely plausible about the pipes, but have you also considered the effects of ionospheric heaters,  which have been used by the Russians for quite some time?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sound entirely plausible about the pipes, but have you also considered the effects of ionospheric heaters,  which have been used by the Russians for quite some time?</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58820</link>
		<dc:creator>Leif Svalgaard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58820</guid>
		<description>Peter Taylor (03:32:50) :
&lt;i&gt;this means there are a lot of people out there who have got this wrong! &lt;/i&gt;
Lots of people are wrong about many things. Just think of how many are wrong on AGW :-)

&lt;i&gt;I thought that the flux from the sun was channeled in streamers along the plain of the ecliptic not just as a plasm sheet but in some discreet funneled jets - like the ancient swastika symbol for the sun? I will have to do some more reading!&lt;/i&gt;
On top of the general outflow there are occasions where distinct narrow &#039;streams&#039; can be found.

&lt;i&gt;So - its ALL internal variability - as an ecologist I find that hard to believe - but I will chew it over!&lt;/i&gt;
But you are willing to accept that the Sun has ALL internal variations? [unless you ascribe them to planetary influences and even then one can argue that they are internal to the solar system as a whole - unless you argue that passage through the galactic spiral arms controls everything - in which case they are internal to the Galaxy - unless you argue that oscillating gravitational waves as a signature of the expanding universe are responsible ( http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/news/2008ScienceMeeting/posters/P4_01_Lynch_Poster.pdf ) - in which case etc, etc]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Taylor (03:32:50) :<br />
<i>this means there are a lot of people out there who have got this wrong! </i><br />
Lots of people are wrong about many things. Just think of how many are wrong on AGW :-)</p>
<p><i>I thought that the flux from the sun was channeled in streamers along the plain of the ecliptic not just as a plasm sheet but in some discreet funneled jets &#8211; like the ancient swastika symbol for the sun? I will have to do some more reading!</i><br />
On top of the general outflow there are occasions where distinct narrow &#8217;streams&#8217; can be found.</p>
<p><i>So &#8211; its ALL internal variability &#8211; as an ecologist I find that hard to believe &#8211; but I will chew it over!</i><br />
But you are willing to accept that the Sun has ALL internal variations? [unless you ascribe them to planetary influences and even then one can argue that they are internal to the solar system as a whole - unless you argue that passage through the galactic spiral arms controls everything - in which case they are internal to the Galaxy - unless you argue that oscillating gravitational waves as a signature of the expanding universe are responsible ( <a href="http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/news/2008ScienceMeeting/posters/P4_01_Lynch_Poster.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/news/2008ScienceMeeting/posters/P4_01_Lynch_Poster.pdf</a> ) - in which case etc, etc]</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58793</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58793</guid>
		<description>Thanks Leif - much to think about and I will look in detail at your website - but this means there are a lot of people out there who have got this wrong! I thought that the flux from the sun was channeled in streamers along the plain of the ecliptic not just as a plasm sheet but in some discreet funneled jets - like the ancient swastika symbol for the sun? I will have to do some more reading!

So - its ALL internal variability - as an ecologist I find that hard to believe - but I will chew it over!

Appreciate the time you take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Leif &#8211; much to think about and I will look in detail at your website &#8211; but this means there are a lot of people out there who have got this wrong! I thought that the flux from the sun was channeled in streamers along the plain of the ecliptic not just as a plasm sheet but in some discreet funneled jets &#8211; like the ancient swastika symbol for the sun? I will have to do some more reading!</p>
<p>So &#8211; its ALL internal variability &#8211; as an ecologist I find that hard to believe &#8211; but I will chew it over!</p>
<p>Appreciate the time you take.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill P</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58643</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58643</guid>
		<description>Denver area had an amazing fog this morning.  I was curious about the link between wood smoke and fog-formation. 

We have had reports of California fire-related haze over the Rockies several days earlier this week. 

On the lighter side:

http://www.topix.com/album/detail/boulder-co/MC50TGQ3GVIEOTJC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denver area had an amazing fog this morning.  I was curious about the link between wood smoke and fog-formation. </p>
<p>We have had reports of California fire-related haze over the Rockies several days earlier this week. </p>
<p>On the lighter side:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.topix.com/album/detail/boulder-co/MC50TGQ3GVIEOTJC" rel="nofollow">http://www.topix.com/album/detail/boulder-co/MC50TGQ3GVIEOTJC</a></p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58620</link>
		<dc:creator>Leif Svalgaard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58620</guid>
		<description>Peter Taylor (04:06:00) :
&lt;i&gt;there are magnetic tunnels here and there, and these accelerate electrons from there to here, so what happens to the rest of the circuit? Voltage changes can shock systems.&lt;/i&gt;
There are no &#039;magnetic tunnels&#039;. This is a very misleading term. What happens is that the interplanetary magnetic field and the Earth&#039;s field can connect [if they are in opposite directions]. Because the IMF varies a lot, this reconnection takes place in thousands of small patches all over the front of the Earth&#039;s magnetosphere. This allows the Earth&#039;s magnetic field to be dragged out behind the Earth [as seen from the Sun]. The pile-up of this magnetic field is unstable and blows up every few hours where the field &#039;snaps&#039; back and thereby accelerating particles than cause aurorae and geomagnetic activity. 

&lt;i&gt;Landscheidt talked of the transfer of angular momentum and torque rather than small rises on the surface. His graphs of this changing over time look remarkably like the sunspot cycle.&lt;/i&gt;
Angular momentum is measured with respect to an axis of rotation. L takes that to be the barycenter. Because the barycenter moves around [follows Jupiter] the axis moves too, so you get a &#039;change&#039; of angular momentum simply because the axis moved. The Sun doesn&#039;t feel a thing from this and there are no &#039;effects&#039;. The these movements look like the solar cycle is because  Jupiter&#039;s orbital period is close to the solar cycle period.

&lt;i&gt;if TSI has not changed much since Maunder Minimum AND the magnetic field has also not changed much - then that only leaves the Interplanetary flux
The flux is just the total field through a sphere around the Sun. Double the field, double the flux. No change in field, no change in flux.

&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;as measured by Lockwood and Stamper and modelled by Solanki&lt;/i&gt;
The &#039;doubling&#039; inferred by Lockwood et al. didn&#039;t happen and Solanki&#039;s model was adjusted to fit the &#039;doubling&#039;. See: http://www.leif.org/research/Comment%20on%20McCracken.pdf

&lt;i&gt;and assumed that the geomagnetic field captured some of that energy and the aa index thus followed the IP flux.&lt;/i&gt; 
aa is wrong [too low] before 1957, see: http://www.leif.org/research/Reply%20to%20Lockwood%20IDV%20Comment.pdf

&lt;i&gt;If the aa has not changed, why do we get a variation in beryllium-10 and carbon-14 at the same time as the MM?&lt;/i&gt;
Because the cosmic ray flux does not depend on aa, but on the sunspot number, which was smaller during the MM

&lt;i&gt;Why do radiogenic isotope variations track the palaeo-ecological data on temperature and precipitation patterns?&lt;/i&gt;
Because these patterns in turn influence the deposition of the isotopes. See: http://www.leif.org/research/Aldahan%20GRL.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Taylor (04:06:00) :<br />
<i>there are magnetic tunnels here and there, and these accelerate electrons from there to here, so what happens to the rest of the circuit? Voltage changes can shock systems.</i><br />
There are no &#8216;magnetic tunnels&#8217;. This is a very misleading term. What happens is that the interplanetary magnetic field and the Earth&#8217;s field can connect [if they are in opposite directions]. Because the IMF varies a lot, this reconnection takes place in thousands of small patches all over the front of the Earth&#8217;s magnetosphere. This allows the Earth&#8217;s magnetic field to be dragged out behind the Earth [as seen from the Sun]. The pile-up of this magnetic field is unstable and blows up every few hours where the field &#8217;snaps&#8217; back and thereby accelerating particles than cause aurorae and geomagnetic activity. </p>
<p><i>Landscheidt talked of the transfer of angular momentum and torque rather than small rises on the surface. His graphs of this changing over time look remarkably like the sunspot cycle.</i><br />
Angular momentum is measured with respect to an axis of rotation. L takes that to be the barycenter. Because the barycenter moves around [follows Jupiter] the axis moves too, so you get a &#8216;change&#8217; of angular momentum simply because the axis moved. The Sun doesn&#8217;t feel a thing from this and there are no &#8216;effects&#8217;. The these movements look like the solar cycle is because  Jupiter&#8217;s orbital period is close to the solar cycle period.</p>
<p><i>if TSI has not changed much since Maunder Minimum AND the magnetic field has also not changed much &#8211; then that only leaves the Interplanetary flux<br />
The flux is just the total field through a sphere around the Sun. Double the field, double the flux. No change in field, no change in flux.</p>
<p></i><i>as measured by Lockwood and Stamper and modelled by Solanki</i><br />
The &#8216;doubling&#8217; inferred by Lockwood et al. didn&#8217;t happen and Solanki&#8217;s model was adjusted to fit the &#8216;doubling&#8217;. See: <a href="http://www.leif.org/research/Comment%20on%20McCracken.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.leif.org/research/Comment%20on%20McCracken.pdf</a></p>
<p><i>and assumed that the geomagnetic field captured some of that energy and the aa index thus followed the IP flux.</i><br />
aa is wrong [too low] before 1957, see: <a href="http://www.leif.org/research/Reply%20to%20Lockwood%20IDV%20Comment.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.leif.org/research/Reply%20to%20Lockwood%20IDV%20Comment.pdf</a></p>
<p><i>If the aa has not changed, why do we get a variation in beryllium-10 and carbon-14 at the same time as the MM?</i><br />
Because the cosmic ray flux does not depend on aa, but on the sunspot number, which was smaller during the MM</p>
<p><i>Why do radiogenic isotope variations track the palaeo-ecological data on temperature and precipitation patterns?</i><br />
Because these patterns in turn influence the deposition of the isotopes. See: <a href="http://www.leif.org/research/Aldahan%20GRL.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.leif.org/research/Aldahan%20GRL.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Peter Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58581</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58581</guid>
		<description>Thanks Leif for the links, which I will explore. And also thanks Henry for the Hung paper - which I will also look at. Intuitively speaking, I doubt it is a tidal thing. What else is there? Well - there are magnetic tunnels here and there, and these accelerate electrons from there to here, so what happens to the rest of the circuit? Voltage changes can shock systems.

Landscheidt talked of the transfer of angular momentum and torque rather than small rises on the surface. His graphs of this changing over time look remarkably like the sunspot cycle.

One question to Leif: if TSI has not changed much since Maunder Minimum AND the magnetic field has also not changed much - then that only leaves the Interplanetary flux - as measured by Lockwood and Stamper and modelled by Solank - and assumed that the geomagnetic field captured some of that energy and the aa index thus followed the IP flux. If the aa has not changed, why do we get a variation in beryllium-10 and carbon-14 at the same time as the MM? Why do radiogenic isotope variations track the palaeo-ecological data on temperature and precipitation patterns?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Leif for the links, which I will explore. And also thanks Henry for the Hung paper &#8211; which I will also look at. Intuitively speaking, I doubt it is a tidal thing. What else is there? Well &#8211; there are magnetic tunnels here and there, and these accelerate electrons from there to here, so what happens to the rest of the circuit? Voltage changes can shock systems.</p>
<p>Landscheidt talked of the transfer of angular momentum and torque rather than small rises on the surface. His graphs of this changing over time look remarkably like the sunspot cycle.</p>
<p>One question to Leif: if TSI has not changed much since Maunder Minimum AND the magnetic field has also not changed much &#8211; then that only leaves the Interplanetary flux &#8211; as measured by Lockwood and Stamper and modelled by Solank &#8211; and assumed that the geomagnetic field captured some of that energy and the aa index thus followed the IP flux. If the aa has not changed, why do we get a variation in beryllium-10 and carbon-14 at the same time as the MM? Why do radiogenic isotope variations track the palaeo-ecological data on temperature and precipitation patterns?</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58545</link>
		<dc:creator>Leif Svalgaard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58545</guid>
		<description>icarus (19:46:05) :
&lt;i&gt;Temperature anomaly (dimension degree Celcius) is clearly NOT a non-dimensional quantity.
Why does climate science insist on using dimensional quantities to describe important phenomena?&lt;/i&gt;

Divide by the mean temperature in Kelvin [290K] and you get a non-dimensional quantity. The graph of that quantity doesn&#039;t change, only the scale, no there is really nothing wrong with the standard practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>icarus (19:46:05) :<br />
<i>Temperature anomaly (dimension degree Celcius) is clearly NOT a non-dimensional quantity.<br />
Why does climate science insist on using dimensional quantities to describe important phenomena?</i></p>
<p>Divide by the mean temperature in Kelvin [290K] and you get a non-dimensional quantity. The graph of that quantity doesn&#8217;t change, only the scale, no there is really nothing wrong with the standard practice.</p>
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		<title>By: icarus</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58528</link>
		<dc:creator>icarus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58528</guid>
		<description>Temperature anomaly (dimension degree Celcius) is clearly NOT a non-dimensional quantity.

Why does climate science insist on using dimensional quantities to describe important phenomena?

All kinds of mathematical sins, errors and misunderstandings can be hidden inside dimensional quantities. is not this just another example of this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Temperature anomaly (dimension degree Celcius) is clearly NOT a non-dimensional quantity.</p>
<p>Why does climate science insist on using dimensional quantities to describe important phenomena?</p>
<p>All kinds of mathematical sins, errors and misunderstandings can be hidden inside dimensional quantities. is not this just another example of this?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugger</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58353</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58353</guid>
		<description>E.M.Smith (00:17:36) : 
&gt;The Russians were given large credits for shutting down lots of inefficient Soviet era factories
.
BTW, those factories wasn&#039;t been inefficient. While having much less labour  force (and hence lower benefits from division of labour), capital, colonial puppet regimes and much more harsh environmental conditions than it&#039;s western rivals USSR still maintained second most advanced economy in the world.  &quot;Inefficiency&quot; of soviet industry has nothing to do with its bankruptcy just like in case of Ford, GM and other US industrial giants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>E.M.Smith (00:17:36) :<br />
&gt;The Russians were given large credits for shutting down lots of inefficient Soviet era factories<br />
.<br />
BTW, those factories wasn&#8217;t been inefficient. While having much less labour  force (and hence lower benefits from division of labour), capital, colonial puppet regimes and much more harsh environmental conditions than it&#8217;s western rivals USSR still maintained second most advanced economy in the world.  &#8220;Inefficiency&#8221; of soviet industry has nothing to do with its bankruptcy just like in case of Ford, GM and other US industrial giants.</p>
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		<title>By: E.M.Smith</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58340</link>
		<dc:creator>E.M.Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58340</guid>
		<description>Dell said: This leaves me to basically one of two conclusion
end quote

Or three:  It&#039;s much more pleasant to do a global warming story about tropical islands sinking (think beach scene) than a story about Siberia being 2 degrees hotter at -78 instead of -80  ;-)

Not that I would EVER accuse the MSM of location bias 8-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dell said: This leaves me to basically one of two conclusion<br />
end quote</p>
<p>Or three:  It&#8217;s much more pleasant to do a global warming story about tropical islands sinking (think beach scene) than a story about Siberia being 2 degrees hotter at -78 instead of -80  ;-)</p>
<p>Not that I would EVER accuse the MSM of location bias 8-)</p>
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		<title>By: E.M.Smith</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58337</link>
		<dc:creator>E.M.Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58337</guid>
		<description>From littleskeptic (16:17:04) :
Well spotted. Time for an Audit of GISS!
end quote

Hmmm....  GAO prides itself on catching all sorts of bogosities and lies in government, and they seem to love roasting sacred cows...

Anyone have a contact in the GAO who needs to make a rep for themselves?

Just a thought ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From littleskeptic (16:17:04) :<br />
Well spotted. Time for an Audit of GISS!<br />
end quote</p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230;.  GAO prides itself on catching all sorts of bogosities and lies in government, and they seem to love roasting sacred cows&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyone have a contact in the GAO who needs to make a rep for themselves?</p>
<p>Just a thought ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: E.M.Smith</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58335</link>
		<dc:creator>E.M.Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58335</guid>
		<description>David L. Hagen (23:53:14) :
Anthony - fascinating prospects.
Check for Date ON/OFF for District Heating
Somewhere I heard or read that in good centralized bureaucratic methodology, some district heating systems were officially turned on at a certain date in the fall and off in the spring
end quote.

Yup... the dorm I lived in at U.C. had &#039;central heat&#039; from a mile or two across campus.  Specific on/off days were religiously held without regard to weather.  Complaints were met with a reiteration of the specific start /stop day in fall / spring...   Isn&#039;t it nice to know that bureaucrats are the same everywhere?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David L. Hagen (23:53:14) :<br />
Anthony &#8211; fascinating prospects.<br />
Check for Date ON/OFF for District Heating<br />
Somewhere I heard or read that in good centralized bureaucratic methodology, some district heating systems were officially turned on at a certain date in the fall and off in the spring<br />
end quote.</p>
<p>Yup&#8230; the dorm I lived in at U.C. had &#8216;central heat&#8217; from a mile or two across campus.  Specific on/off days were religiously held without regard to weather.  Complaints were met with a reiteration of the specific start /stop day in fall / spring&#8230;   Isn&#8217;t it nice to know that bureaucrats are the same everywhere?</p>
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		<title>By: E.M.Smith</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58334</link>
		<dc:creator>E.M.Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58334</guid>
		<description>But I’m sure there are other factors that might keep my conspiricay theory alive. Is Putin in the Carbon trading business?
end quote

Yes.  The Russians were given large credits for shutting down lots of inefficient Soviet era factories (that would have died anyway).  These they sell to Europe.  That is how Europe meets it&#039;s Kyoto goals (to the extent they can) not via actual change.  That is also why Russia did a sudden about face and endorsed Kyoto.  (Vat?  No need to stop fuel burning?  Ve get monye from Eurocrazies for noddink?  Oky Doky.  Ve sign up!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But I’m sure there are other factors that might keep my conspiricay theory alive. Is Putin in the Carbon trading business?<br />
end quote</p>
<p>Yes.  The Russians were given large credits for shutting down lots of inefficient Soviet era factories (that would have died anyway).  These they sell to Europe.  That is how Europe meets it&#8217;s Kyoto goals (to the extent they can) not via actual change.  That is also why Russia did a sudden about face and endorsed Kyoto.  (Vat?  No need to stop fuel burning?  Ve get monye from Eurocrazies for noddink?  Oky Doky.  Ve sign up!)</p>
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		<title>By: Bill M.</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58314</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58314</guid>
		<description>I am an engineer involved with the design of steam distribution pipes used in heavy oil recovery fields.  I&#039;m not sure what the Russians use for insulation, however, if the amount of of insulation is adequate, the heat loss from the piping should not be significant.  On the other hand, an uninsulated pipe will emit significant amounts of heat both from radiant and convective losses.

One of the blogs above mentioned the inability to adjust the heat flow to buildings in base in Barrow.  Since steam condenses at a constant temperature (assuming a relatively constant pressure), reducing the steam flow will lead to a greater quantity of condensed steam in the lines relative to the amount of steam vapor since the amount of heat lost from the pipe is unchanged at the lower flow.  A buildup of condensate can lead to a phenomenom referred to as water hammer that can result in catastrophic failure of the piping if not kept under control.  I have no doubt that this has occurred in just about every Russian town with central steam heating leading to policies of not allowing steam flow regulation.

On another note, having lived in northern Canada, one of the observations I have made is that it is not unusual for it to be relatively windless whenever the temperature drops to low levels (below -25 to -30 C and below).  This may help explain the heat island effect in some of these communities under severe cold conditions.  I would be interested if anyone else has the same observation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an engineer involved with the design of steam distribution pipes used in heavy oil recovery fields.  I&#8217;m not sure what the Russians use for insulation, however, if the amount of of insulation is adequate, the heat loss from the piping should not be significant.  On the other hand, an uninsulated pipe will emit significant amounts of heat both from radiant and convective losses.</p>
<p>One of the blogs above mentioned the inability to adjust the heat flow to buildings in base in Barrow.  Since steam condenses at a constant temperature (assuming a relatively constant pressure), reducing the steam flow will lead to a greater quantity of condensed steam in the lines relative to the amount of steam vapor since the amount of heat lost from the pipe is unchanged at the lower flow.  A buildup of condensate can lead to a phenomenom referred to as water hammer that can result in catastrophic failure of the piping if not kept under control.  I have no doubt that this has occurred in just about every Russian town with central steam heating leading to policies of not allowing steam flow regulation.</p>
<p>On another note, having lived in northern Canada, one of the observations I have made is that it is not unusual for it to be relatively windless whenever the temperature drops to low levels (below -25 to -30 C and below).  This may help explain the heat island effect in some of these communities under severe cold conditions.  I would be interested if anyone else has the same observation.</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58291</link>
		<dc:creator>Leif Svalgaard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58291</guid>
		<description>Henry Galt (15:31:06) :
&lt;i&gt;Leif, I expected an answer similar to the one you gave.&lt;/i&gt;
And I also expected your response.
&lt;i&gt;To claim that the Ching-Cheh Hung finding “fails on its merit”&lt;/i&gt;
The failure [which is obvious] is this: If the alignments are &#039;powerful&#039; enough to influence the [very rare] major flares, they would be even more efficient on the lesser flares [unless precise arguments be given why they would not affect lesser flares], so we would expect the lesser flares to line up as well, even stronger. We have observed thousands of lesser flares and millions of the tiniest flares and no convincing organization of any kind has ever been found. There is some weak evidence for a 154-day period [Riegler flares], but this is marginal and not generally accepted. Do not fall into the trap that scientists only study conventional science. It is every scientists dream to deliver a blow to a piece of &#039;conventional&#039; science. Alas, this is hard to do.

The calculation of the magnitude of the tidal effect is also straightforward [and has been alluded to in this blog already], and as long as arguments are not given that show where the tidal calculations run of the rail, one is faced with the problem of a 1 millimeter bulge, that hardly can have any effect, considering that the solar surface is covered by millions of Texas-sized [that is in excess of 1000,000,000 millimeters] blobs moving randomly at 1000,000 millimeters per second.

I&#039;m right now reviewing a paper that argues that geomagnetic activity [because it is caused by the supposedly planetary driven Sun] should repeat exactly and precisely from now on the values it had in the 1840s and on, so there is the proof that mainstream science even today continues to examine these ideas. And up to now, they have consistently failed. They are not being &#039;suppressed&#039; in any way, they just don&#039;t measure up [and this paper under review doesn&#039;t either, BTW].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry Galt (15:31:06) :<br />
<i>Leif, I expected an answer similar to the one you gave.</i><br />
And I also expected your response.<br />
<i>To claim that the Ching-Cheh Hung finding “fails on its merit”</i><br />
The failure [which is obvious] is this: If the alignments are &#8216;powerful&#8217; enough to influence the [very rare] major flares, they would be even more efficient on the lesser flares [unless precise arguments be given why they would not affect lesser flares], so we would expect the lesser flares to line up as well, even stronger. We have observed thousands of lesser flares and millions of the tiniest flares and no convincing organization of any kind has ever been found. There is some weak evidence for a 154-day period [Riegler flares], but this is marginal and not generally accepted. Do not fall into the trap that scientists only study conventional science. It is every scientists dream to deliver a blow to a piece of &#8216;conventional&#8217; science. Alas, this is hard to do.</p>
<p>The calculation of the magnitude of the tidal effect is also straightforward [and has been alluded to in this blog already], and as long as arguments are not given that show where the tidal calculations run of the rail, one is faced with the problem of a 1 millimeter bulge, that hardly can have any effect, considering that the solar surface is covered by millions of Texas-sized [that is in excess of 1000,000,000 millimeters] blobs moving randomly at 1000,000 millimeters per second.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m right now reviewing a paper that argues that geomagnetic activity [because it is caused by the supposedly planetary driven Sun] should repeat exactly and precisely from now on the values it had in the 1840s and on, so there is the proof that mainstream science even today continues to examine these ideas. And up to now, they have consistently failed. They are not being &#8217;suppressed&#8217; in any way, they just don&#8217;t measure up [and this paper under review doesn't either, BTW].</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Galt</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58280</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Galt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58280</guid>
		<description>Leif Svalgaard (08:40:10) :

Leif, I expected an answer similar to the one you gave. &quot;The tide/alignment argument&quot; has not been studied in sufficient depth (using recently available software helps) for anyone who has not had demonstrated the distinction between a rough guess and a precise cut in this area.

Allowing the theory to fall &quot;by the wayside&quot; has now been shown to be wrong for a couple of reasons, not least of which is that the &lt;em&gt;belief&lt;/em&gt; that &quot;the alignments have drifted out of phase because..(insert reason here) &quot; is not the study of syzygies and oppositions viewed heliocentrically.

To claim that the Ching-Cheh Hung finding &quot;fails on its merit&quot; and &quot;The probability for this to happen at random is 0.039 percent&quot; has, somehow &quot;not turned out to be fruitful&quot; is, more or less, what I expected you to say but hoped you may have addressed it without pointing to a poor example of something that has failed &quot;on its merit&quot;. 






The tide/alignment argument was thought of a long time ago [ca. 1850] and was actually the leading [conventional] theory for at least half a century. The reason is has fallen by the wayside is that as more data and knowledge has accumulated the theory has failed to deliver [the alignments have drifted out of phase because Jupiter&#039;s orbital period is a bit longer than the average solar cycle]. Also, the magnitude of the tides [which is easily calculated using arguments and knowledge three hundred years old] is exceedingly small [one millimeter]. The theory is not studiously ignored [scientists are studiously looking for things that work and are useful for predictions], it simply fails on its merit and has not turned out to be fruitful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leif Svalgaard (08:40:10) :</p>
<p>Leif, I expected an answer similar to the one you gave. &#8220;The tide/alignment argument&#8221; has not been studied in sufficient depth (using recently available software helps) for anyone who has not had demonstrated the distinction between a rough guess and a precise cut in this area.</p>
<p>Allowing the theory to fall &#8220;by the wayside&#8221; has now been shown to be wrong for a couple of reasons, not least of which is that the <em>belief</em> that &#8220;the alignments have drifted out of phase because..(insert reason here) &#8221; is not the study of syzygies and oppositions viewed heliocentrically.</p>
<p>To claim that the Ching-Cheh Hung finding &#8220;fails on its merit&#8221; and &#8220;The probability for this to happen at random is 0.039 percent&#8221; has, somehow &#8220;not turned out to be fruitful&#8221; is, more or less, what I expected you to say but hoped you may have addressed it without pointing to a poor example of something that has failed &#8220;on its merit&#8221;. </p>
<p>The tide/alignment argument was thought of a long time ago [ca. 1850] and was actually the leading [conventional] theory for at least half a century. The reason is has fallen by the wayside is that as more data and knowledge has accumulated the theory has failed to deliver [the alignments have drifted out of phase because Jupiter's orbital period is a bit longer than the average solar cycle]. Also, the magnitude of the tides [which is easily calculated using arguments and knowledge three hundred years old] is exceedingly small [one millimeter]. The theory is not studiously ignored [scientists are studiously looking for things that work and are useful for predictions], it simply fails on its merit and has not turned out to be fruitful.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugger</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58274</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58274</guid>
		<description>Well, actually it&#039;s rather untypical having heat pipes uninsulated here in Russia. Even more, it&#039;s against national construction standarts except special construction circumstances. Usually pipes buried inside the ground within so-called heating main (&quot;теплотрасса&quot;).
Look at that image: 
http://www.td-msk.ru/images/pushkino.jpg

Uninsulated pipes became more widespread only in recent two decades due to deep economical crysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, actually it&#8217;s rather untypical having heat pipes uninsulated here in Russia. Even more, it&#8217;s against national construction standarts except special construction circumstances. Usually pipes buried inside the ground within so-called heating main (&#8220;теплотрасса&#8221;).<br />
Look at that image:<br />
<a href="http://www.td-msk.ru/images/pushkino.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.td-msk.ru/images/pushkino.jpg</a></p>
<p>Uninsulated pipes became more widespread only in recent two decades due to deep economical crysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58249</link>
		<dc:creator>Leif Svalgaard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58249</guid>
		<description>John S. (11:46:03) :
&lt;i&gt;One has to look at insolation, nevertheless, quite thoroughly as the source of the energy that drives the entire system. Finding processes/mechanisms that are highly coherent, in the cross-spectral sense, with chaotic climate variables is always a challenge. Non-equilibrium thermodynamics has a habit of confusing people in the soft sciences, inviting speculation without rigorous basis.
Have to return my nose to more serious matters. Cheers!&lt;/i&gt;
That mouthful turns my BS-filter up several notches...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John S. (11:46:03) :<br />
<i>One has to look at insolation, nevertheless, quite thoroughly as the source of the energy that drives the entire system. Finding processes/mechanisms that are highly coherent, in the cross-spectral sense, with chaotic climate variables is always a challenge. Non-equilibrium thermodynamics has a habit of confusing people in the soft sciences, inviting speculation without rigorous basis.<br />
Have to return my nose to more serious matters. Cheers!</i><br />
That mouthful turns my BS-filter up several notches&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Leif Svalgaard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58246</link>
		<dc:creator>Leif Svalgaard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58246</guid>
		<description>John S. (11:46:03) :
&lt;i&gt;I view blogs as arenas for chewing the fat–outside the customary scientific protocol.&lt;/i&gt;
In order for us to chew the fat, you have to show the fat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John S. (11:46:03) :<br />
<i>I view blogs as arenas for chewing the fat–outside the customary scientific protocol.</i><br />
In order for us to chew the fat, you have to show the fat.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Alexander</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/15/giss-noaa-ghcn-and-the-odd-russian-temperature-anomaly-its-all-pipes/#comment-58244</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4154#comment-58244</guid>
		<description>Getting back to NOAA&#039;s false October temperature report - NOAA GHCN have reported another false stated temperature for October. They have released a report stating that October, 2008, was the second hottest month recorded - NOT SO FAST!

A number of bloggers have found that October, 2008, is actually the tenth warmest October.

It is quite evident that GHCN is adjusting their temperature measurements skewed toward the higher temperature dataset. Could this be deliberate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Getting back to NOAA&#8217;s false October temperature report &#8211; NOAA GHCN have reported another false stated temperature for October. They have released a report stating that October, 2008, was the second hottest month recorded &#8211; NOT SO FAST!</p>
<p>A number of bloggers have found that October, 2008, is actually the tenth warmest October.</p>
<p>It is quite evident that GHCN is adjusting their temperature measurements skewed toward the higher temperature dataset. Could this be deliberate?</p>
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