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	<title>Comments on: Sunlight has more powerful influence on ocean circulation and climate than North American ice sheets</title>
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	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: Arthur Glass</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-57646</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arthur Glass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-57646</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot; Land configuration is a significant factor. &#039;

Over what time period? The Isthmus of Panama, for example, developed some 40 million years ago; before there was a connection between the two Americas, the oceanic circulation must have been significantly different, with a concurrently different distribution of the heat budget.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Land configuration is a significant factor. &#8216;</p>
<p>Over what time period? The Isthmus of Panama, for example, developed some 40 million years ago; before there was a connection between the two Americas, the oceanic circulation must have been significantly different, with a concurrently different distribution of the heat budget.</p>
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		<title>By: Arthur Glass</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-57636</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arthur Glass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-57636</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#039;“The ocean does not always follow the climate; it exerts its own impact on climate processes. In other words, the ocean circulation doesn’t just follow along with the rest of the climate, ***it actually changes in different ways than the ice sheets during glacial cycles.”

I thought that the ocean was a major part of climate, a factor but not a distinct actor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;“The ocean does not always follow the climate; it exerts its own impact on climate processes. In other words, the ocean circulation doesn’t just follow along with the rest of the climate, ***it actually changes in different ways than the ice sheets during glacial cycles.”</p>
<p>I thought that the ocean was a major part of climate, a factor but not a distinct actor.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Keohane</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-56579</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Keohane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-56579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[crosspatch, in case you didn&#039;t look at the site I mentioned, this is a lion to a map at the last glacial maximum. The shore lines do not change that much, there is no land mass in the Atlantic to change current flow. http://www.scotese.com/lastice.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>crosspatch, in case you didn&#8217;t look at the site I mentioned, this is a lion to a map at the last glacial maximum. The shore lines do not change that much, there is no land mass in the Atlantic to change current flow. <a href="http://www.scotese.com/lastice.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotese.com/lastice.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bill P</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-56148</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill P]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-56148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A 2-D map of the main currents, side-by-side with the 3-Dimensional map above, can give a sense of what&#039;s going on under the surface.

http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8q_1.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A 2-D map of the main currents, side-by-side with the 3-Dimensional map above, can give a sense of what&#8217;s going on under the surface.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8q_1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8q_1.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bill P</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-56135</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill P]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-56135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Crosspatch,

A relief map of the Atlantic Ocean floor:

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/4339.html

Don&#039;t know if that&#039;s what you were looking for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crosspatch,</p>
<p>A relief map of the Atlantic Ocean floor:</p>
<p><a href="http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/4339.html" rel="nofollow">http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/4339.html</a></p>
<p>Don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s what you were looking for.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bateman</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-56102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Bateman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-56102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok, how about increased solar activity equals more energy to evaporate water off the oceans and the more moisture available plus energy to transport it and increase the precipitation.
Less solar activity equals less evaporation and less enegy to tranport and therefore less precipitation.  It could get even more straightforward if extra energy results in the precipitation getting shifted elsewhere, like a jet stream too hot that overshoots in turn 3 and hits the wall or can&#039;t slow down to make the turn into the pits.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, how about increased solar activity equals more energy to evaporate water off the oceans and the more moisture available plus energy to transport it and increase the precipitation.<br />
Less solar activity equals less evaporation and less enegy to tranport and therefore less precipitation.  It could get even more straightforward if extra energy results in the precipitation getting shifted elsewhere, like a jet stream too hot that overshoots in turn 3 and hits the wall or can&#8217;t slow down to make the turn into the pits.</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-56079</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-56079</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Richard (15:35:39)  There is an older study linking Nile River levels, also with a very long span of documentation, with Aurorae Borealis.
============================================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard (15:35:39)  There is an older study linking Nile River levels, also with a very long span of documentation, with Aurorae Borealis.<br />
============================================</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-56012</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-56012</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From New Scientist 
&quot;THE sun is nearly 150 million kilometres away, but it seems to have Earth&#039;s rivers on a leash. The flow of a huge South American river - and thus the rainfall that feeds it - appears to rise and fall with the number of sunspots.&quot;

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026814.100-sunspot-activity-linked-to-earth-riverflow.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From New Scientist<br />
&#8220;THE sun is nearly 150 million kilometres away, but it seems to have Earth&#8217;s rivers on a leash. The flow of a huge South American river &#8211; and thus the rainfall that feeds it &#8211; appears to rise and fall with the number of sunspots.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026814.100-sunspot-activity-linked-to-earth-riverflow.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026814.100-sunspot-activity-linked-to-earth-riverflow.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: evanjones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-55965</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[evanjones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-55965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some say the world will end in Eccentricity
Some say in Obliquity
But many in my generation
Tend to favor Inclination
So we are left to wonder when
Until our earth returns through dust
And will again
As so it must]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some say the world will end in Eccentricity<br />
Some say in Obliquity<br />
But many in my generation<br />
Tend to favor Inclination<br />
So we are left to wonder when<br />
Until our earth returns through dust<br />
And will again<br />
As so it must</p>
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		<title>By: evanjones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-55962</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[evanjones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-55962</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;cite&gt;While orbital mechanics might be an “enabling” mechanism, something must act as a trigger (in both directions). &lt;/cite&gt;

That is the prevailing theory.

&lt;cite&gt;I am simply wondering if that trigger might be a major change in tropical Atlantic (or maybe even somewhere else) currents when ocean levels reach a certain point.&lt;/cite&gt;

Could be. Land configuration is a significant factor. The theory doesn&#039;t exactly explain how the ice forms (then leads to albedo feedback), merely that it does.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><cite>While orbital mechanics might be an “enabling” mechanism, something must act as a trigger (in both directions). </cite></p>
<p>That is the prevailing theory.</p>
<p><cite>I am simply wondering if that trigger might be a major change in tropical Atlantic (or maybe even somewhere else) currents when ocean levels reach a certain point.</cite></p>
<p>Could be. Land configuration is a significant factor. The theory doesn&#8217;t exactly explain how the ice forms (then leads to albedo feedback), merely that it does.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunlight has more powerful influence on ocean circulation and climate than ice sheets &#171; UD/RK Samhälls Debatt</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-55959</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sunlight has more powerful influence on ocean circulation and climate than ice sheets &#171; UD/RK Samhälls Debatt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-55959</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-... [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-</a>&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: crosspatch</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-55958</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[crosspatch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-55958</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Right, Evan, I am aware of that, but we seem to go from maximum cold to maximum warmth in a period of about 100 years.  Those orbital changes would be insignificant over a period of only 100 years.  In other words, things are pretty much the same now as they were 100 years ago ... or even 200 years ago.

While orbital mechanics might be an &quot;enabling&quot; mechanism, something must act as a trigger (in both directions).  I am simply wondering if that trigger might be a major change in tropical Atlantic (or maybe even somewhere else) currents when ocean levels reach a certain point.  So do oceans rise until Florida is flooded causing the &quot;Gulf Stream&quot; not to be channeled around the end of Florida forming a stream?  Do oceans drop until the stream is basically cut off?  Is that the &quot;trigger&quot;?  And even then I would think it would be a gradual change.  Whatever happens seems to happen quite dramatically.  In the space of one modern human&#039;s lifetime we go from maximum cold and glaciation to the warmest period of the interglacial.  The contrast in temperatures over only a couple of hundred years is simply amazing and something that is counter-intuitive to me if orbital changes are the cause of it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, Evan, I am aware of that, but we seem to go from maximum cold to maximum warmth in a period of about 100 years.  Those orbital changes would be insignificant over a period of only 100 years.  In other words, things are pretty much the same now as they were 100 years ago &#8230; or even 200 years ago.</p>
<p>While orbital mechanics might be an &#8220;enabling&#8221; mechanism, something must act as a trigger (in both directions).  I am simply wondering if that trigger might be a major change in tropical Atlantic (or maybe even somewhere else) currents when ocean levels reach a certain point.  So do oceans rise until Florida is flooded causing the &#8220;Gulf Stream&#8221; not to be channeled around the end of Florida forming a stream?  Do oceans drop until the stream is basically cut off?  Is that the &#8220;trigger&#8221;?  And even then I would think it would be a gradual change.  Whatever happens seems to happen quite dramatically.  In the space of one modern human&#8217;s lifetime we go from maximum cold and glaciation to the warmest period of the interglacial.  The contrast in temperatures over only a couple of hundred years is simply amazing and something that is counter-intuitive to me if orbital changes are the cause of it.</p>
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		<title>By: evanjones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-55945</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[evanjones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-55945</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The prevailing theory is that Milankovitch cycles come into congruence, reduce albedo, and at that point positive feedback loops take over and the change is rapid.

Not unlike IPCC tipping-point theory.

There is an argument over which is more of a primary driver, obliquity or eccentricity. (There are some inclination fans as well.) The reason for this is that at one point, ice ages were occurring every c. 50,000 years and before that ever 100,000. Others argue that it is not one driver but a conjunction which causes the feedback loops.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The prevailing theory is that Milankovitch cycles come into congruence, reduce albedo, and at that point positive feedback loops take over and the change is rapid.</p>
<p>Not unlike IPCC tipping-point theory.</p>
<p>There is an argument over which is more of a primary driver, obliquity or eccentricity. (There are some inclination fans as well.) The reason for this is that at one point, ice ages were occurring every c. 50,000 years and before that ever 100,000. Others argue that it is not one driver but a conjunction which causes the feedback loops.</p>
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		<title>By: crosspatch</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-55940</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[crosspatch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-55940</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And I will tell the underlying reason(s) for my curiosity.  Looking at the current ice age that probably started around 2 million years ago, glaciation is the &quot;normal&quot; state and the interglacial is the &quot;odd&quot; period.  Some 100K years of glacial and 10K years, roughly, of interglacial.  These periods seem to flip state dramatically and in a very short period of time.  

Orbital changes happen gradually over long periods of time.  Changes from glaciation to interglacial happen practically instantly on a geological timescale. I wonder why.    Could a general cooling slowly lower ocean levels until the gulf stream changes in some significant way and causes less heat to be transported Northward and suddenly the entire North Atlantic climate changes?  During ice ages, what is the delta in temperatures in North Atlantic climates vs North Pacific climates?  Does the Atlantic make an extreme change and the Pacific not change much at all?  Why do things suddenly warm up out of glaciation for about 10K years and then go back to the &quot;normal&quot; glaciation state?

I am curious what I might find if I am able to gradually drop sea levels.  How does the Gulf Stream react and is there a certain point where things succenly change.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I will tell the underlying reason(s) for my curiosity.  Looking at the current ice age that probably started around 2 million years ago, glaciation is the &#8220;normal&#8221; state and the interglacial is the &#8220;odd&#8221; period.  Some 100K years of glacial and 10K years, roughly, of interglacial.  These periods seem to flip state dramatically and in a very short period of time.  </p>
<p>Orbital changes happen gradually over long periods of time.  Changes from glaciation to interglacial happen practically instantly on a geological timescale. I wonder why.    Could a general cooling slowly lower ocean levels until the gulf stream changes in some significant way and causes less heat to be transported Northward and suddenly the entire North Atlantic climate changes?  During ice ages, what is the delta in temperatures in North Atlantic climates vs North Pacific climates?  Does the Atlantic make an extreme change and the Pacific not change much at all?  Why do things suddenly warm up out of glaciation for about 10K years and then go back to the &#8220;normal&#8221; glaciation state?</p>
<p>I am curious what I might find if I am able to gradually drop sea levels.  How does the Gulf Stream react and is there a certain point where things succenly change.</p>
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		<title>By: crosspatch</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/09/sunlight-has-more-powerful-influence-on-ocean-circulation-and-climate-than-north-american-ice-sheets/#comment-55927</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[crosspatch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=4077#comment-55927</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Steve Keohane: for ancient shorelines check out ...&quot;

Thanks but things have drifted somewhat and continents have different shapes, etc.  Basically what I would want to do is pull the shoreline down to the 100 meter sea floor contour line and have a look.  I am guessing that a lot would change.  A lot of land area in the Caribbean would become exposed.  How would that change the path of the Gulf Stream?  Would the stream get &quot;split&quot; somewhere?  It certainly would change tropical storm behavior in the region with much more land area storms would behave differently.

What I would be most interested in is if the stream gets pushed considerably farther East before heading into the Atlantic and if it might become split by some landmass in its path.  Or does the amount of water available for the current become reduced greatly because of  considerable shallowing of the path?  Basically I just want to see what that region looks like with the ocean level 100 meters lower.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Steve Keohane: for ancient shorelines check out &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks but things have drifted somewhat and continents have different shapes, etc.  Basically what I would want to do is pull the shoreline down to the 100 meter sea floor contour line and have a look.  I am guessing that a lot would change.  A lot of land area in the Caribbean would become exposed.  How would that change the path of the Gulf Stream?  Would the stream get &#8220;split&#8221; somewhere?  It certainly would change tropical storm behavior in the region with much more land area storms would behave differently.</p>
<p>What I would be most interested in is if the stream gets pushed considerably farther East before heading into the Atlantic and if it might become split by some landmass in its path.  Or does the amount of water available for the current become reduced greatly because of  considerable shallowing of the path?  Basically I just want to see what that region looks like with the ocean level 100 meters lower.</p>
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