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	<title>Comments on: Boise gets earliest snow on record, record cold in Oregon, Washington</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 13:34:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: E.M.Smith</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-58561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[E.M.Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-58561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It takes time for large massive things to change course.

Cold started way up north, took a long time getting south, but now its here.  You try getting from Alaska down to Florida at a fast walking pace ;-)

This is just a taste of what&#039;s to come.  Still no sunspots again today...

It will be fascinating watching this slow motion &#039;arctic express&#039; sweep over Washington D.C.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It takes time for large massive things to change course.</p>
<p>Cold started way up north, took a long time getting south, but now its here.  You try getting from Alaska down to Florida at a fast walking pace ;-)</p>
<p>This is just a taste of what&#8217;s to come.  Still no sunspots again today&#8230;</p>
<p>It will be fascinating watching this slow motion &#8216;arctic express&#8217; sweep over Washington D.C.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Kelley</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Kelley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Apropos to nothing I suppose, but a nurse who works at my Dad&#039;s nursing home has been snowed in at her place up in the hills since Saturday or Sunday.  People are having to use tractors or Caterpillars to plow themselves out in this area of Southern Montana.  Kind of early for all this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apropos to nothing I suppose, but a nurse who works at my Dad&#8217;s nursing home has been snowed in at her place up in the hills since Saturday or Sunday.  People are having to use tractors or Caterpillars to plow themselves out in this area of Southern Montana.  Kind of early for all this.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Cobb</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48445</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bruce Cobb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[gfish:  &lt;i&gt;One cannot legitimately use tactics of gotcha politics when it comes to to things like climate science. you need to put together 50 to 100 years of measurements across the world, average them together and compare them over long stretches of time.&lt;/i&gt;
Which 50 to 100 years did you have in mind?  Oh, right, the past 50 to 100 years (excluding the last 7 or so).  How convenient.  Did you know we have had significant cooling in the past, as recently as the LIA, as well as warmer periods?  What could have caused them?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gfish:  <i>One cannot legitimately use tactics of gotcha politics when it comes to to things like climate science. you need to put together 50 to 100 years of measurements across the world, average them together and compare them over long stretches of time.</i><br />
Which 50 to 100 years did you have in mind?  Oh, right, the past 50 to 100 years (excluding the last 7 or so).  How convenient.  Did you know we have had significant cooling in the past, as recently as the LIA, as well as warmer periods?  What could have caused them?</p>
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		<title>By: APM</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48424</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[APM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48424</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks JP.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks JP.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48404</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48404</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops, crap. forgot to close my quote properly. The second para is mine...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, crap. forgot to close my quote properly. The second para is mine&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48403</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;But climate is never that easy. Scientists are just now realizing how the combination of long term oscillations in both the Pacific and Atlantic can determine short term to decadal climate variations. The Great Plains Dust Bowl years during the 30s, many scientists believe, was caused by a warm Atlantic (postive AMO), and a Pacific that either had a neutral change in temperatures or a slightly cooling at the Equator. By the mid 1940s, both the Atlantic Basin were cooling and La Ninas began to dominate the Pacific. The 1930s saw record heatwaves, droughts, and tropical cyclone activity.&lt;blockquote&gt;

I was told by the History Channel (on a show with Hansen and Gore) that the dust bowl of the 30s was caused by humans.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But climate is never that easy. Scientists are just now realizing how the combination of long term oscillations in both the Pacific and Atlantic can determine short term to decadal climate variations. The Great Plains Dust Bowl years during the 30s, many scientists believe, was caused by a warm Atlantic (postive AMO), and a Pacific that either had a neutral change in temperatures or a slightly cooling at the Equator. By the mid 1940s, both the Atlantic Basin were cooling and La Ninas began to dominate the Pacific. The 1930s saw record heatwaves, droughts, and tropical cyclone activity.<br />
<blockquote>
<p>I was told by the History Channel (on a show with Hansen and Gore) that the dust bowl of the 30s was caused by humans.</p></blockquote>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: Pamela Gray</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48387</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pamela Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48387</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow and wow backwards!  Record lows are being set all over the inland NW and parts of the pacific NW!  With this much cold air, we might start to see a DECREASE in snow fall since cold air is less moist than warm air.  The winter of 2006 saw temps in the double digit minus area for days at a time in Wallowa County, freezing pipes everywhere, even the freeze resistant deeply buried pipes.  We didn&#039;t get much snow either, forcing us to use way less water then we needed for late fall pasture and third cutting fields.  I certainly hope that winter does not repeat itself.

http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=pdt]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow and wow backwards!  Record lows are being set all over the inland NW and parts of the pacific NW!  With this much cold air, we might start to see a DECREASE in snow fall since cold air is less moist than warm air.  The winter of 2006 saw temps in the double digit minus area for days at a time in Wallowa County, freezing pipes everywhere, even the freeze resistant deeply buried pipes.  We didn&#8217;t get much snow either, forcing us to use way less water then we needed for late fall pasture and third cutting fields.  I certainly hope that winter does not repeat itself.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=pdt" rel="nofollow">http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=pdt</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike86</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48383</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike86]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pamela,

I think it may depend on your grape variety.  Here in northern IA, the ground certainly freezes in the Winter, but you can get grapes and there are (some, really!) vineyards.  

To continue the weather topic, we turned from very nice in the morning to nippy during the last 24 hours.  Leaves have been turning and dropping for over a week.  No frost yet, but getting close.

Mike86]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pamela,</p>
<p>I think it may depend on your grape variety.  Here in northern IA, the ground certainly freezes in the Winter, but you can get grapes and there are (some, really!) vineyards.  </p>
<p>To continue the weather topic, we turned from very nice in the morning to nippy during the last 24 hours.  Leaves have been turning and dropping for over a week.  No frost yet, but getting close.</p>
<p>Mike86</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48377</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JP]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48377</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[APM,

Not all atmospheric oscillations render predictable results in all areas. El Nino can cause droughts in the Northeast Plains, but flooding in California, and winter snowstorms in New England. In Texas, La Nina is most evident in late Winter and Spring (in the form of severe thunderstorms), but normally does not effect  temperatures (with the exception of West Texas high country during the winter). During periods dominated by La Ninas, the &quot;cooling&quot; is gradual and not very noticeable for people living in  the Southwest. But what you will see is changes in precipitation patterns.

In a regime dominated by El Ninos, the dynamic synoptic weather patterns that give the eastern half of the US its major midwest snowstorms, deep freezes, and severe weather are shifted significantly northward. Winters become warmer, night time lows not as cold, and many areas become drier. There is also a better chance of long term drought/summer heat waves.

But climate is never that easy. Scientists are just now realizing how the combination of long term oscillations in both the Pacific and Atlantic can determine short term to decadal climate variations. The Great Plains Dust Bowl years during the 30s, many scientists believe, was caused by a warm Atlantic (postive AMO), and a Pacific that either had a neutral change in temperatures or a slightly cooling at the Equator. By the mid 1940s, both the Atlantic Basin were cooling and La Ninas began to dominate the Pacific. The 1930s saw record heatwaves, droughts, and tropical cyclone activity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>APM,</p>
<p>Not all atmospheric oscillations render predictable results in all areas. El Nino can cause droughts in the Northeast Plains, but flooding in California, and winter snowstorms in New England. In Texas, La Nina is most evident in late Winter and Spring (in the form of severe thunderstorms), but normally does not effect  temperatures (with the exception of West Texas high country during the winter). During periods dominated by La Ninas, the &#8220;cooling&#8221; is gradual and not very noticeable for people living in  the Southwest. But what you will see is changes in precipitation patterns.</p>
<p>In a regime dominated by El Ninos, the dynamic synoptic weather patterns that give the eastern half of the US its major midwest snowstorms, deep freezes, and severe weather are shifted significantly northward. Winters become warmer, night time lows not as cold, and many areas become drier. There is also a better chance of long term drought/summer heat waves.</p>
<p>But climate is never that easy. Scientists are just now realizing how the combination of long term oscillations in both the Pacific and Atlantic can determine short term to decadal climate variations. The Great Plains Dust Bowl years during the 30s, many scientists believe, was caused by a warm Atlantic (postive AMO), and a Pacific that either had a neutral change in temperatures or a slightly cooling at the Equator. By the mid 1940s, both the Atlantic Basin were cooling and La Ninas began to dominate the Pacific. The 1930s saw record heatwaves, droughts, and tropical cyclone activity.</p>
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		<title>By: swampie</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48260</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[swampie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48260</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yep.  Irrigation costs for fruit crops, the possibility of losing the developing fruits to a late frost or a windstorm....farming is a gamble.  The local cotton fields were badly damaged by flooding from TS Fay, and it isn&#039;t sure whether the planting, fertilizer, and picking costs will be covered, let alone make a profit.  A little further north, the crops were damaged by drought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep.  Irrigation costs for fruit crops, the possibility of losing the developing fruits to a late frost or a windstorm&#8230;.farming is a gamble.  The local cotton fields were badly damaged by flooding from TS Fay, and it isn&#8217;t sure whether the planting, fertilizer, and picking costs will be covered, let alone make a profit.  A little further north, the crops were damaged by drought.</p>
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		<title>By: Pamela Gray</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48247</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pamela Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48247</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just as an example, it takes 3 years to establish a vineyard that produces wine grapes at the quality required for wine.  If a farmer can&#039;t make an educated guess about what the weather/climate might be in the next 6 years, they run the risk of losing their vineyard before they can harvest for profit for the first time, and they risk losing the next 3 years that would establish the grapes as a dependable crop.  AGW&#039;s tell us the global warming is a done deal so go ahead and plant in these marginal areas because the temperature and growing season will eventually be warmer and longer, just perfect for grapes.  However, this past very cool and short growing season resulted in many vineyards not doing well.  If you were a farmer, what bet would you make right now?  Will it cool again next growing season, or will warming return?  And by the way, the growing season isn&#039;t your only worry.  If the ground freezes deeply during the winter, your vines will die.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as an example, it takes 3 years to establish a vineyard that produces wine grapes at the quality required for wine.  If a farmer can&#8217;t make an educated guess about what the weather/climate might be in the next 6 years, they run the risk of losing their vineyard before they can harvest for profit for the first time, and they risk losing the next 3 years that would establish the grapes as a dependable crop.  AGW&#8217;s tell us the global warming is a done deal so go ahead and plant in these marginal areas because the temperature and growing season will eventually be warmer and longer, just perfect for grapes.  However, this past very cool and short growing season resulted in many vineyards not doing well.  If you were a farmer, what bet would you make right now?  Will it cool again next growing season, or will warming return?  And by the way, the growing season isn&#8217;t your only worry.  If the ground freezes deeply during the winter, your vines will die.</p>
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		<title>By: Pamela Gray</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48229</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pamela Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Farmers MUST pay attention to at least regional trends that most consider to be weather and not climate.  Why?  Because we have to decide what to plant and how many cows to pasture and inseminate all based on a risky bet on temperatures and precipitation a year ahead of time.  A site like this helps us to make better decisions that what can be gleaned from reading the Farmer&#039;s Almanac.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Farmers MUST pay attention to at least regional trends that most consider to be weather and not climate.  Why?  Because we have to decide what to plant and how many cows to pasture and inseminate all based on a risky bet on temperatures and precipitation a year ahead of time.  A site like this helps us to make better decisions that what can be gleaned from reading the Farmer&#8217;s Almanac.</p>
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		<title>By: APM</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48218</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[APM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48218</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: your reply to gfish&#039;s comment: I&#039;m not an AGW proponent, but I think that the implication of this post is pretty clear: the recent unusually early and cold weather is a sign of whats really happening (i.e., global cooling).  At least, that&#039;s how I read it (with no small amount of hope that the implication is correct).  I think the point of your post in general is valid: annecdotal accounts of weather events, one way or the other, do not prove or disprove climactic trends.  But I feel compelled to comment given how often AGW proponents are criticized on this site as being intellectually dishonest.  Maybe you did really only post it because it&#039;s an interesting weather story, but I wonder whether you&#039;d have posted stuff about a heat wave (or another weather event that could be seen as &quot;evidence&quot; of global warming).

I also sympathize with gfish - here in Texas I&#039;m waiting for the recently-changed PDO, the imminent La Nina, and the decline and solar activity to amount to some cooling that I can feel.  All we&#039;ve got right now, however, are highs that are 5-10 degrees above average.  And it blows.

Your site is fantastic, and I will continue to be a daily visitor long after Cycle 24 disappoints us all and picks up to relatively normal levels.  Thank you!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: your reply to gfish&#8217;s comment: I&#8217;m not an AGW proponent, but I think that the implication of this post is pretty clear: the recent unusually early and cold weather is a sign of whats really happening (i.e., global cooling).  At least, that&#8217;s how I read it (with no small amount of hope that the implication is correct).  I think the point of your post in general is valid: annecdotal accounts of weather events, one way or the other, do not prove or disprove climactic trends.  But I feel compelled to comment given how often AGW proponents are criticized on this site as being intellectually dishonest.  Maybe you did really only post it because it&#8217;s an interesting weather story, but I wonder whether you&#8217;d have posted stuff about a heat wave (or another weather event that could be seen as &#8220;evidence&#8221; of global warming).</p>
<p>I also sympathize with gfish &#8211; here in Texas I&#8217;m waiting for the recently-changed PDO, the imminent La Nina, and the decline and solar activity to amount to some cooling that I can feel.  All we&#8217;ve got right now, however, are highs that are 5-10 degrees above average.  And it blows.</p>
<p>Your site is fantastic, and I will continue to be a daily visitor long after Cycle 24 disappoints us all and picks up to relatively normal levels.  Thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: moptop</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48185</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[moptop]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48185</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fred, I am just an amateur, but it seems to me like if you follow their method for resolving this to their full implications, you are going to get a lower climate sensitivity. Which has been the skeptic&#039;s argument all along.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred, I am just an amateur, but it seems to me like if you follow their method for resolving this to their full implications, you are going to get a lower climate sensitivity. Which has been the skeptic&#8217;s argument all along.</p>
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		<title>By: gfish</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/12/boise-gets-earliest-snow-on-record/#comment-48183</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gfish]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3656#comment-48183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And in Ohio, it&#039;s 82F. Anecdotal evaluations of what&#039;s happening on a particular fall of a particular year don&#039;t really tell you all that much about global weather patterns. What matters is the overall average temperature of the planet and even the fastest climate changes happen over the course of centuries. This is ignoring the forest for the trees.

One cannot legitimately use tactics of gotcha politics when it comes to to things like climate science. you need to put together 50 to 100 years of measurements across the world, average them together and compare them over long stretches of time. Individual weather can be and is erratic, following local fronts and atmospheric conditions. Climate is much bigger than that.

&lt;strong&gt;REPLY:&lt;/strong&gt; Who said anything about &quot;climate&quot; in the original posting? The post is tagged as &quot;weather&quot;. I posted it because I found it interesting, and because weather is my passion and my livelihood. I think you are reading too much into it.  - Anthony]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And in Ohio, it&#8217;s 82F. Anecdotal evaluations of what&#8217;s happening on a particular fall of a particular year don&#8217;t really tell you all that much about global weather patterns. What matters is the overall average temperature of the planet and even the fastest climate changes happen over the course of centuries. This is ignoring the forest for the trees.</p>
<p>One cannot legitimately use tactics of gotcha politics when it comes to to things like climate science. you need to put together 50 to 100 years of measurements across the world, average them together and compare them over long stretches of time. Individual weather can be and is erratic, following local fronts and atmospheric conditions. Climate is much bigger than that.</p>
<p><strong>REPLY:</strong> Who said anything about &#8220;climate&#8221; in the original posting? The post is tagged as &#8220;weather&#8221;. I posted it because I found it interesting, and because weather is my passion and my livelihood. I think you are reading too much into it.  &#8211; Anthony</p>
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