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	<title>Comments on: Michael Mann&#8217;s Lecture at URI  and the &#8220;blogger who must not be named&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: stan longbottom</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48440</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stan longbottom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48440</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Professor Wegman ripped this duckhead apart only a couple of years ago. Us australians emit lots of carbon dioxide making stuff like steel and aluminium. If this fool ever holidays downunder he better not mention what he does. We do not like our boys out of work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Professor Wegman ripped this duckhead apart only a couple of years ago. Us australians emit lots of carbon dioxide making stuff like steel and aluminium. If this fool ever holidays downunder he better not mention what he does. We do not like our boys out of work.</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48332</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48332</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Darkness falls atop the world,
Still and cold.
Go, Baby Ice, Go.
====================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darkness falls atop the world,<br />
Still and cold.<br />
Go, Baby Ice, Go.<br />
====================</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48235</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48235</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John (16:15:56)  Also, the Arctic is freezing back up. Maximum melt was two summer&#039;s ago. Last summer ended with 10% greater ice extent than the year before and ice extent is rising rapidly, right now.  I don&#039;t really expect a freeze-up this year as dramatic as last year&#039;s winter because of van Loon&#039;s prediction of a mild winter, but with the resurgence of the La Nina next year, I don&#039;t expect next year&#039;s melt to even reach this year&#039;s let alone last year&#039;s.

Whence, the Arctic is freezing back up, because the globe is cooling.  For how long, even kim doesn&#039;t know.
====================================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John (16:15:56)  Also, the Arctic is freezing back up. Maximum melt was two summer&#8217;s ago. Last summer ended with 10% greater ice extent than the year before and ice extent is rising rapidly, right now.  I don&#8217;t really expect a freeze-up this year as dramatic as last year&#8217;s winter because of van Loon&#8217;s prediction of a mild winter, but with the resurgence of the La Nina next year, I don&#8217;t expect next year&#8217;s melt to even reach this year&#8217;s let alone last year&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Whence, the Arctic is freezing back up, because the globe is cooling.  For how long, even kim doesn&#8217;t know.<br />
====================================</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48233</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48233</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John (16:15:56)  Also, see lucia&#039;s Blackboard at rankexploits.com for disconfirmation of the IPCC&#039;s projections.  The temperature plot is no longer in line with IPCC projections, in fact, it is not even close.
==========================================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John (16:15:56)  Also, see lucia&#8217;s Blackboard at rankexploits.com for disconfirmation of the IPCC&#8217;s projections.  The temperature plot is no longer in line with IPCC projections, in fact, it is not even close.<br />
==========================================</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John Philip (16:15:56)  Nobody much doubts that the earth warmed for the last quarter of the last century.  It is this century that the temperature flattened out and has now started dropping.  I maintain that the warming of the last part of the last century was from the PDO in its warming phase and now that the PDO has flipped, we&#039;ll cool for another 20-30 years.  If the sun is going into a Grand or Lesser Minimum, we may cool for 50-100 years.  Whence: We are cooling; for how long, even kim doesn&#039;t know.

In my opinion, the natural warming of the last quarter of the last century co-incided with the rise in CO2.  That the warming has been blamed on CO2 is simply the grandest example ever of the Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc logical fallacy ever.  Note that temperature is dropping while the CO2 keeps rising.  Watt&#039;s Up With That?
=======================================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Philip (16:15:56)  Nobody much doubts that the earth warmed for the last quarter of the last century.  It is this century that the temperature flattened out and has now started dropping.  I maintain that the warming of the last part of the last century was from the PDO in its warming phase and now that the PDO has flipped, we&#8217;ll cool for another 20-30 years.  If the sun is going into a Grand or Lesser Minimum, we may cool for 50-100 years.  Whence: We are cooling; for how long, even kim doesn&#8217;t know.</p>
<p>In my opinion, the natural warming of the last quarter of the last century co-incided with the rise in CO2.  That the warming has been blamed on CO2 is simply the grandest example ever of the Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc logical fallacy ever.  Note that temperature is dropping while the CO2 keeps rising.  Watt&#8217;s Up With That?<br />
=======================================</p>
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		<title>By: John Philip</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48231</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Philip]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Anthony, here&#039;s the permalink: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121433727/abstract

Apart from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20041109/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;NASA&lt;/a&gt;, the organisations who employ these &#039;usual suspects&#039; are:

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Hadley Centre, 
the University of Vienna, the NOAA, The CRU at University of East Anglia, 
RSS and Yale. 

I guess there&#039;s going to be a lot of egg on a lot of faces when &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/09/progress-in-millennial-reconstructions/langswitch_lang/en#comment-97498&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Steve McIntyre &lt;/a&gt; publishes his riposte in the International Journal of Climatology!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Anthony, here&#8217;s the permalink: <a href="http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121433727/abstract" rel="nofollow">http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121433727/abstract</a></p>
<p>Apart from <a href="http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20041109/" rel="nofollow">NASA</a>, the organisations who employ these &#8216;usual suspects&#8217; are:</p>
<p>Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Hadley Centre,<br />
the University of Vienna, the NOAA, The CRU at University of East Anglia,<br />
RSS and Yale. </p>
<p>I guess there&#8217;s going to be a lot of egg on a lot of faces when <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/09/progress-in-millennial-reconstructions/langswitch_lang/en#comment-97498" rel="nofollow"> Steve McIntyre </a> publishes his riposte in the International Journal of Climatology!</p>
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		<title>By: John Philip</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48226</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Philip]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kim,

Puzzled. Of the global mean temperature datasets produced by various agencies UAH shows the lowest rate of warming. However even the linear trends in this data for 120, 240 and 360 months are +0.11, +0.18 and +0.13C / decade respectively (in line with IPCC projections). So on what evidence do you conclude that the globe is cooling?

JP]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kim,</p>
<p>Puzzled. Of the global mean temperature datasets produced by various agencies UAH shows the lowest rate of warming. However even the linear trends in this data for 120, 240 and 360 months are +0.11, +0.18 and +0.13C / decade respectively (in line with IPCC projections). So on what evidence do you conclude that the globe is cooling?</p>
<p>JP</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Taylor</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48214</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Douglas Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48214</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[FYI P 0.05,  (for example that P&lt;0.1), then one would say that the investigator is using a &quot;rubber ruler&quot; for his measurement of uncertainty.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI P 0.05,  (for example that P&lt;0.1), then one would say that the investigator is using a &#8220;rubber ruler&#8221; for his measurement of uncertainty.</p>
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		<title>By: John F. Pittman</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48207</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John F. Pittman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the second link from John Philip  “data manipulation and inappropriate statistics”  which states:

&quot;&quot;The bottom line is that we obtained results strikingly different from those of Douglass et al. The “robust statistical test” that they used to compare models and observations had at least one serious flaw – its failure to account for any uncertainty in the “signal component” of observed temperature trends (see QUESTION 7). This flaw led them to reach incorrect conclusions. We showed this by applying their test to randomly generated data with the same statistical properties as the observed temperature data, but without any underlying “signal trend”. In this “synthetic data” case, we knew that significant differences in temperature trends could occur by chance only, and thus would happen infrequently. When we applied the Douglass et al. test, however, we found that even randomly generated data showed statistically significant trend differences much more frequently than we would expect on the basis of chance alone.&quot;&quot;

Well SMcI has shown this for MBH9X and yet Climate science still considers these works of Mann to be great science, and MM worthy of your snide remark. Obviously, the problem is that Douglass et al are not part of the team. Different teams ... different rules. Perhaps, you, John Philip, can help with this, or even explain this since you posted it. And please note that Wegman agreed with the criticisms directed at  MBH.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the second link from John Philip  “data manipulation and inappropriate statistics”  which states:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8221;The bottom line is that we obtained results strikingly different from those of Douglass et al. The “robust statistical test” that they used to compare models and observations had at least one serious flaw – its failure to account for any uncertainty in the “signal component” of observed temperature trends (see QUESTION 7). This flaw led them to reach incorrect conclusions. We showed this by applying their test to randomly generated data with the same statistical properties as the observed temperature data, but without any underlying “signal trend”. In this “synthetic data” case, we knew that significant differences in temperature trends could occur by chance only, and thus would happen infrequently. When we applied the Douglass et al. test, however, we found that even randomly generated data showed statistically significant trend differences much more frequently than we would expect on the basis of chance alone.&#8221;"</p>
<p>Well SMcI has shown this for MBH9X and yet Climate science still considers these works of Mann to be great science, and MM worthy of your snide remark. Obviously, the problem is that Douglass et al are not part of the team. Different teams &#8230; different rules. Perhaps, you, John Philip, can help with this, or even explain this since you posted it. And please note that Wegman agreed with the criticisms directed at  MBH.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Id</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48203</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Id]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dennis A,

I have in my recent post demonstrated a high statistical significance to Mann&#039;s own temperature proxies and a negative slope.  In fact higher than his own correlation to ground measured temperature.  (maybe he needs better thermometers)  

I am not a statistician but the smoothing of proxy data &#039;dramatically&#039; changes the significance criterion through auto correlation.  There are probably a bunch of readers with more experience that could expound on that point.

The p level is entirely arbitrary and its meaning often leads to incorrect conclusions.  I believe it also is used as a convenient way to make a false claim with the auto correlation difficult to quantify and disprove.  It sounds nitpicky on Climate Audit when the posters discuss the difference but it goes right to the heart of the matter at times.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis A,</p>
<p>I have in my recent post demonstrated a high statistical significance to Mann&#8217;s own temperature proxies and a negative slope.  In fact higher than his own correlation to ground measured temperature.  (maybe he needs better thermometers)  </p>
<p>I am not a statistician but the smoothing of proxy data &#8216;dramatically&#8217; changes the significance criterion through auto correlation.  There are probably a bunch of readers with more experience that could expound on that point.</p>
<p>The p level is entirely arbitrary and its meaning often leads to incorrect conclusions.  I believe it also is used as a convenient way to make a false claim with the auto correlation difficult to quantify and disprove.  It sounds nitpicky on Climate Audit when the posters discuss the difference but it goes right to the heart of the matter at times.</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48195</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48195</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John (14:14:19) and others.  In particular, see Cliff&#039;s comment #499 on the 5/1/08 Douglass thread at climateaudit.org
=====================================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John (14:14:19) and others.  In particular, see Cliff&#8217;s comment #499 on the 5/1/08 Douglass thread at climateaudit.org<br />
=====================================</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48193</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John (14:14:19)  Also, on May 1st of this year, Steve posted a communication from Douglass defending his statistics that this recent paper criticizes and extensive discussion followed.  

The &#039;amateurs&#039; at climate audit are already licking their chops, see the recent &#039;moving team&#039; thread.
==============================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John (14:14:19)  Also, on May 1st of this year, Steve posted a communication from Douglass defending his statistics that this recent paper criticizes and extensive discussion followed.  </p>
<p>The &#8216;amateurs&#8217; at climate audit are already licking their chops, see the recent &#8216;moving team&#8217; thread.<br />
==============================</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48190</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John (14:14:19)  I suspect Steve is hard at work on this.  Your simple assertion that the data was not manipulated nor statistics applied inappropriately is not convincing.  I don&#039;t buy their explanation for reworking the data and am not competent to evaluate their statistics, but someone is.  Furthermore, this study just partly explained the discrepancy.  

Also, the globe is cooling, for how long, even kim doesn&#039;t know.  The horse this study wants to ride is out of the barn already.
==========================================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John (14:14:19)  I suspect Steve is hard at work on this.  Your simple assertion that the data was not manipulated nor statistics applied inappropriately is not convincing.  I don&#8217;t buy their explanation for reworking the data and am not competent to evaluate their statistics, but someone is.  Furthermore, this study just partly explained the discrepancy.  </p>
<p>Also, the globe is cooling, for how long, even kim doesn&#8217;t know.  The horse this study wants to ride is out of the barn already.<br />
==========================================</p>
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		<title>By: John Philip</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48189</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Philip]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48189</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;How about the latest from Livermore about the tropospheric temperatures? Is it just more data manipulation and inappropriate statistics?&lt;/i&gt;

Seems not. A team of 17 researchers from 12 institutions have produced a study that is, among other things, a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121433727/abstract?CRETRY=1&amp;SRETRY=0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; comprehensive rebuttal &lt;/a&gt; of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.realclimate.org/docs/santer_etal_IJoC_08_fact_sheet.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; &quot;data manipulation and inappropriate statistics&quot;&lt;/a&gt;  of &lt;a href=&quot;http://science-sepp.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Douglass, Singer, Christy et al. &lt;/a&gt; Apparently this was 

&#039;based on use of older radiosonde and satellite datasets, and on two methodological errors: the neglect of observational trend uncertainties introduced by interannual climate variability, and application of an inappropriate statistical consistency test.&#039;

Apparently the Climate &#039;Auditors&#039; missed that one....

&lt;strong&gt;REPLY:&lt;/strong&gt; Nope nobody missed it, but we know not to trust anything with Gavin Schmidt&#039;s name on it. As you&#039;ll note, the author list is the same crowd of usual suspects. 

For example, Gavin won&#039;t post anything I have (and many others) with links back to this website, or to Climate Audit. He doesn&#039;t play fair, he&#039;s not a gentleman, and his regular censoring actions excluding other ideas are not trustworthy of a scientist, IMHO.  

BTW your first link does not work, it is temporary.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>How about the latest from Livermore about the tropospheric temperatures? Is it just more data manipulation and inappropriate statistics?</i></p>
<p>Seems not. A team of 17 researchers from 12 institutions have produced a study that is, among other things, a <a href="http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121433727/abstract?CRETRY=1&amp;SRETRY=0" rel="nofollow"> comprehensive rebuttal </a> of the <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/docs/santer_etal_IJoC_08_fact_sheet.pdf" rel="nofollow"> &#8220;data manipulation and inappropriate statistics&#8221;</a>  of <a href="http://science-sepp.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow"> Douglass, Singer, Christy et al. </a> Apparently this was </p>
<p>&#8216;based on use of older radiosonde and satellite datasets, and on two methodological errors: the neglect of observational trend uncertainties introduced by interannual climate variability, and application of an inappropriate statistical consistency test.&#8217;</p>
<p>Apparently the Climate &#8216;Auditors&#8217; missed that one&#8230;.</p>
<p><strong>REPLY:</strong> Nope nobody missed it, but we know not to trust anything with Gavin Schmidt&#8217;s name on it. As you&#8217;ll note, the author list is the same crowd of usual suspects. </p>
<p>For example, Gavin won&#8217;t post anything I have (and many others) with links back to this website, or to Climate Audit. He doesn&#8217;t play fair, he&#8217;s not a gentleman, and his regular censoring actions excluding other ideas are not trustworthy of a scientist, IMHO.  </p>
<p>BTW your first link does not work, it is temporary.</p>
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		<title>By: hunter</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/10/michael-manns-lecture-at-uri-and-the-blogger-who-must-not-be-named/#comment-48166</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hunter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=3608#comment-48166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This pushback by Mann, to continue to pretend there was no Medieval warming period, and that his so-called hockey stick is credible is just part and parcel with the echo-chamber AGW creates.
The promoters of the apocalypse now are smoothing out the differences between the troposphere temps and their models, to creat the impression that their models have accuracy.
As mentioned up thread, we are seeing an entire science getting higjacked by apocalyptic prophecy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This pushback by Mann, to continue to pretend there was no Medieval warming period, and that his so-called hockey stick is credible is just part and parcel with the echo-chamber AGW creates.<br />
The promoters of the apocalypse now are smoothing out the differences between the troposphere temps and their models, to creat the impression that their models have accuracy.<br />
As mentioned up thread, we are seeing an entire science getting higjacked by apocalyptic prophecy.</p>
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