The (17:50:11) is classic content spam.

Reply – Thanks… Zapped. – Dee Norris

The HHV includes energy content that is not avaliable to do work — unless captured through condensation, and should therefore be excluded from the energy content identified as available to the car.

That is why the US Department of Energy used the LHV value in the link I provided.

I am right about this.

Lower Heating Value:

“The LHV assumes that the latent heat of vaporization of water in the fuel and the reaction products is not recovered. It is useful in comparing fuels where condensation of the combustion products is impractical …” (like in a car)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_heating_value

But — in the interest of settling on agreeable metrics for the continuation of this discussion, and any future discussions let us identify the cost per mile driven and then calculate economic break-points for both gasoline and ev

I am correct to use the LHV for gasoline because the application is an IC engine. In internal combustion engines, the water of combustion is not condensed, it is exhausted and the thermal energy is therfore lost.

If gasoline was being used in some putative system, where the downstream water of combustion could be condensed (therefore recovering the heat) it would be valid to use the HHV.

Cheers

“I think I would rather have a wind mill in my backyard than a nuclear power plant.”

Oh, really? Then you need to talk to these folks: click

Actually I could sleep with that. I use a fan every night for the white noise, have for years, since I worked nights. It helps block little noises that would normally keep me awake. But I certainly wouldn’t want to listen to it all day. People usually move out to the country to get away from the noise.

Don is right about the energy content for gasoline. I used Karl’s number without checking. Regular has 36.4 – 36.6 kWh/gal, and premium is 41.3 kWh/gal.

That changes my spreadsheet numbers a bit (but not much, because EV’s are pricey).

Updated 10 year costs for EV w/solar PV in sunny climate, and ICE’s, in decreasing order-
Tesla EV- $162K
Porsche 911- $158K
Chevy Volt EV- $94K
Chevy Corvette- $91K
Honda S2000- $76K
Ford Flex- $69K
Zev2Go (tiny EV)- $41K
VW Polo- $37K
Honda Civic- $34K
Toyota Yaris- $33K
Smart 4 Two (tiny)- $32K

Average Energy Content of Various Fuels

——————————————————————————–
1 kilowatt-hour of electricity … 3,413 Btu
1 cubic foot of natural gas … 1,008 to 1,034 Btu
1 therm of natural gas … 100,000 Btu
1 gallon of liquefied petroleum gas(LPG) … 95,475 Btu
1 gallon of crude oil … 138,095 Btu
1 barrel of crude oil … 5,800,000 Btu
1 gallon of kerosene or light distillate oil … 135,000 Btu
1 gallon middle distillate or diesel fuel oil … 138,690 Btu
1 gallon residential fuel oil … 149,690 Btu
1 gallon of gasoline … 125,000 Btu
1 gallon of ethanol … 84,400 Btu
1 gallon of methanol … 62,800 Btu
1 gallon gasohol
(10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) … 120,900 Btu
1 pound of coal … 8,100-13,000 Btu
1 ton of coal … 16,200,00-26,000,000 Btu
1 ton of coke … 26,000,000 Btu
.
1 ton of wood … 9,000,00-17,000,000 Btu
1 standard cord of wood … 18,000,000-24,000,000 Btu
1 face cord of wood … 6,000,000-8,000,000 Btu
.
1 pound low pressure steam
(recoverable heat) … 1,000 Btu

“I think I would rather have a wind mill in my backyard than a nuclear power plant.”

Oh, really? Then you need to talk to these folks: click

That comes out to be an annual power consumption of 315 Tera-watt hours, which is quite a big chunk of the UK total (394 Tera-watt hours). So to move over to electric cars, we are going to have to nearly double our generating capacity.

Oh, and that not including all the HGV’s. And there’s a few of them, too.

I can’t see it happening, personally.

US DOE says LHV for gasoline is 115,000 BTU/gal (121MJ) 33.6 KWh

adding ethanol(10%) reduces energy content to 96.7% of normal based on 107.5% energy content in 111.% of volume per the link below

ethanol gasoline mix (10%) would only provide 32.5KWh

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/fuel/pdf/rvp_appbtbls.pdf

paminator-

Sun Electronics in Florida:

$3.48/Watt for the panels

http://www.sunelec.com/

That’s a myth, even among power-plant engineers. Modern nukes can follow load quite well, especially w/boron-moderated feedwater on top of fuel-rod movement. The reason they aren’t typically load-following (they’re simply run at full load) is economics — they’re by far the cheapest plants to run. Fossil plants are more expensive to operate, so they are set to load-following. If generation were mostly nuke, it would prb’ly need some refinement of load-matching techiques & instrumentation for US nukes, but France seems to do just fine.

Anthony- Thanks for the link on the EV. I’ll check back on October 15 when they say pricing will be posted. They claim 0.1 kWh/km, which is a factor of two lower than the Tesla Roadster, and a range of 50 miles, on par with the Volt.

Karl-
The solar PV system you link is grid-tied and does not include batteries. You either need to have net metering available with your utility, or you need batteries. You can’t assume the vehicle can be plugged in for the entire daylight period.
The $5.86/W does not include installation costs by a contractor. In Florida, you are not eligible for the solar rebate unless the installation is performed by a certified contractor. This adds about $3/W – $4/W to the solar installation.

Tracking mounts (single or dual axis) add somewhat to the captured insolation, but the price also goes up. I don’t have numbers handy, but read one article a few years ago that concluded it wasn’t worth the extra cost and increased maintenance problems.

Solar panels slowly degrade. 25 year warranties are usually based on some % of original output. Also, output degrades as ambient temperature goes up, like on a hot rooftop during a sunny day next to a Stevenson screen! There are also losses associated with matching the solar panel optimum operating point to the load, losses in battery charge/discharge, conductor I2R losses, inverter/converter losses, etc. Those details can add up to only 80% available energy compared with panel rating.

Here is my version of your calculation for Florida-
For fleet vehicles using diesel @ 25 mpg ($4/gal, less than $3.50.gal for fleet contracts) and using the same 11.2 Kwh/gal including electric efficiency conversion —
for vehicles driving 30,000 miles/yr = 82.2 miles/day = 3.29 gal/day
Annual diesel cost = $4,800

Solar installation cost @ $9/Watt (peak) (grid-tied, net metering, fixed-angle) to provide 11.2*3.29 = 36.8 KWH/day ( assuming panels providing 195Wpeak, 80% system efficiency and 5 hours/day sun) = 47 panels
(Approx. 9kW of panels).
At 195*$9=$1,755/panel, that’s $82,485. Less $22,500 rebate = $59,985.
Or install yourself for 195*$6 = $1170/panel, or $55,000, no rebate. A bit less if your time is free.

Borrow cash to purchase solar installation, 7%, 10 years, $60,000 (need contractor install to get loan) gives payments of $697/month = $83,640 total.
That provides 23 years of fuel (including reduced efficiency over 25 year life).

This gives $3636/year for solar fuel.
Compare with $4800/year for diesel fuel.
During 10 year life of first vehicle, solar fuel is $8364/yr vs $4800/yr for diesel. Not so good.

With a 25 year loan, solar fuel is $5,088/yr vs $4800/yr for diesel.

Not sure where to go from here. Diesel, solar array, loan payments are all deductible.

The bottom line will be to find an EV that is comparable in price to a diesel vehicle that provides the same performance for the task to be completed.