It is true the oceans and thermocline circulation play a large role in climate…from the data I have seen (ARGO), though, it appears the oceans have cooled just a bit since 2002. So we shall see if that is a short term blip or the start of something bigger.

It definitely will be interesting to see what happens over the next year. If temperatures this winter (Nina or not) dip cooler than last winter, that to me will be a stronger sign that the -PDO and/or low solar activity is having a real effect on the climate.

The fact is, I presented evidence that this year has been cooler than 1999. You disputed that. I provided the evidence to show that this was indeed the case. Then, you moved on to dismissing this as meaningful…you never answered my original question, posed to all AGWers here: what is your explanation for how cool 2008 has been?

And sure, if you compare the 1989 La Nina to this one, that one was cooler. I agree that there has been warming since then. However, that one reached a peak strength much stronger than 2008′s, so I’m not sure why you think it is more comparable. Anyhow, my point is not that there hasn’t been warming since the 1980s, just that there has been little or no warming since the end of the 1990s. All the data points to that conclusion. So the real question is: why? I’m not saying it disproves AGW, but it sure wasn’t expected either.

Reply: We all are indebted to Anthony for providing us with a safe, thoughtful space to hang out and each one of us should take personal responsibility for maintaining that standard. – Anne

“One glaring example would be the generally increasing heights of children from one generation to another.”
This has nothing to do with evolution in any form but everything to do with diet and health. I feel sorry for you in that you have exposed your lack of understanding of basic science for all to see.
Also you seem ignorant of religion to, but don’t be too hard on yourself. Creationism is the process of giving life by an intelligent designer so how can Creationism be different from Intelligent Design?
My point again is that you cannot trust someones scientific judgement if you make such glaring errors in such basic science.
For the record I have not been ‘ignoring the issue’ or ‘avoiding the real issue’, I have gone straight to the issue but you don’t like it and start spouting nonsense!
To repeat your error “I never said evolution wasn’t real. All one has to do is look at our changing bodies to realize almost everything evolves. One glaring example would be the generally increasing heights of children from one generation to another.” You are saying you agree with the theory of evolution because of this particular ‘fact’! This is the exact parallel to your climate beliefs, YOU BELIEVE IN IT DESPITE THE ‘FACTS’ TO BE PLAINLY WRONG!!
Maybe you can understand why I shouldn’t go into giving a full evolutionary discussion, let’s dicuss: Genetic inheritance, mutations, phenotype, genotype, resource competion, fossil records, DNA analysis, monophyly, heterosis, heterochrony, group selection, bottlenecks, genetic load, fitness, extinction, environmental adaptation, epistasis and good old Darwinism, or even neo-Darwinism. There is of course also adaptation, sexual selection, niche adaption, altruism and speciation to go through. Maybe your head is hurting, why don’t you have a lie down…you deserve it; or why not grow some cojones and enjoy the discussion!

Attention – There has been enough creationism and religion on this topic by now. Charles has previous warned people off the topic as well. There are a number of blogs which regularly host this sort of debate that may be better suited to your conversation. Lets move on people, nothing here to see. – Anne

Wow! You must be some type of genius to comprehend all that! Where did you study? Any notable degrees?

Actually, I “Googled” Mary Hinge and all I could find was a strip dancer in England and a few other nondescripts. I also found that the term “Mary Hinge” is commonly used for women with “hairy vaginas” in England

Is “our” Mary Hinge actually “counters” in drag? They seem to both use the same circuitous arguments, convoluted logic, and contempt for the facts!

Anthony, do they share the same or similar IP addresses?

Jack Koenig, Editor
The Mysterious Climate Project
http://www.climateclinic.com

Reply: Anthony has an established policy against people using more than one alias when posting which he applies universally to all posters as our resident poet can testify (here) . If Mary and Counters were the same person, I am sure he would have taken an appropriate action. Let trust in his judgment in this regard and avoid the ad hominem attacks – Anne, the newbie moderator

Up to your old tricks Mary? Attempt to re-frame the question in your terms and then use circuitous arguments to avoid the real issue? That doesn’t cut it Mary… at least not here. As far as credibility is concerned, I have more in my little finger than you could ever muster.

Mary continued: “Evolution IS REAL, it’s happening, it has happened (if creationism can be taken seriously it has to explain why God bothered to ‘design’ trilobites, ammonites, pterosaurs, eurypterids and the like, did he just get bored with them and made them extinct!!)”

I’m not too certain what all that diatribe is about, but once again you can’t seem to comprehend what I said. I never said evolution wasn’t real. All one has to do is look at our changing bodies to realize almost everything evolves. One glaring example would be the generally increasing heights of children from one generation to another.

Mary continued: “The whole creationist argument is a joke and Palin, by supporting the study of ‘Intelligent design’ in science lessons falls into this category.”

Nice try at ignoring the issue Mary, but “creationism” and “intelligent design” are two different issues. Your ignorance in the matter is telling!

Mary also wrote: “You show your ignorance in science by explaining it away as a theory, you should know that science is based on theories and that some theories have been very thoroughly tested and have been strengthened to such a point that no-one of serious scientific thought can deny them.”

So by stating the above, you posit that because some theories have been tested and strengthened, evolution must be one of them. Huh? Where did you study logic, Mary… Disneyland? This is an old trick right out of Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals”: make any convoluted claim and then state that anyone skeptical of that claim is a nutcase. Nice try, but once again you failed!

And FINALLY, Mary conclude: “If you want the evidence supporting evolution then I can give it to you, as can any serious scientist on this blog could.”

Wonderful! Then why don’t you do it? Wasn’t that what I asked for in the first place?

Jack Koenig, Editor
The Mysterious Climate Project
http://www.climateclinic.com

No, my entire argument is not based on the fact that 2008 has been cooler so far than 1999. How about the fact that when ENSO effects are removed from the temperature record, there is a flat or slightly declining trend with EVERY temperature metric from 2001 onward?

And the 1998 El Nino ended long before 1999 began, so to claim that temperatures in 1999 were still be affected by the El Nino cannot be supported, that is just your speculation.

This is all a waste of time with you, anyway. You are obviously a die-hard AGW believer who will twist any facts to fit the theory you hold so dear. I dare you to actually open your eyes and look at all the evidence. I did, and now I realize how foolish it is to think AGW is the only explanation for climate change.

Good grief! This coming from the very person who began the entire discussion with her diatribe against Palin!

Mary continues: “I was using the point that I wouldn’t trust anything on a scientific level that came from someone that believes in creationism when all the scientific evidence supports evolution through natural selection.”

Could you please list some of the evidence? As far as I knew, evolution is still just a theory, a theory which may have substance on one hand, and not on another. You also have to remember the evolution theory was hammered into everyones’ skulls by the Lamestream Media (ABCNNBCBS) in much the same manner as they are hammering AGW into everyones’ skulls.

Mary also wrote: “So unless you listen to someones points don’t bother asking any questions, just jump up that cherrypicker of yours and sing and dance,do what you like, ’cause no-one is listening to you.”

Actually Mary, it seems people are listening to you… in much the same manner as one would listen to a good comedian. Your arguments and arrogant attitude don’t wash.

Jack Koenig, Editor
The Mysterious Climate Project
http://www.climateclinic.com

You are incredibly close-minded. I present you with facts, and all you can do is resort to empty accusations of “cherry-picking”? C’mon, show me how I’m cherry picking by comparing the last major La Nina to this one.

And what questions do you want me to answer? You initially disputed my claims, so I provided you with the facts to back them up.

So unless you listen to someones points don’t bother asking any questions, just jump up that cherrypicker of yours and sing and dance,do what you like, ’cause no-one is listening to you.

First of all, there are very few surface stations over the Arctic, so it is much more accurate to go by the satellite readings for that area of the globe for sure, at least. And the satellites show that summer 2008 was about 1F cooler over the Arctic than summer 2007. Those are the facts, interpret them as you wish.

Secondly, I was comparing 2008 so far to 1999 so far, not just the summer months. Remember, the 1998-99 La Nina began earlier, got stronger, and maintained longer than the 2007-08 La Nina. Again, those are the facts. Yet, so far, 2008 is running cooler than 1999.

You asked me to compare 1999 summer temperatures with 2008, according to a surface metric? Very well…GISS shows summer 1999 to have been slightly warmer than summer 2008. Just the facts, as you wanted.

Now my question for you: are you looking at the facts first, or forming your opinions first?

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/do_nmap.py?year_last=2008&month_last=8&sat=4&sst=0&type=anoms&mean_gen=0603&year1=1999&year2=1999&base1=1951&base2=1980&radius=1200&pol=reg