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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;CO2 &#8211; less&#8221; coal power plant draws green ire anyway</title>
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	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38420</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, forgot to finish the sentence properly, but I think you get my point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, forgot to finish the sentence properly, but I think you get my point.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38418</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:23:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38418</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John D, since your post is right above mine, the context is right there for all to see. I don&#039;t see a problem. Quoting an entire post to highlight a single part isn&#039;t good &quot;netiquette&quot;.

Yes it&#039;s been said, on camera, more than once. And GM foods are probably the most tested things we eat. Does it mean they&#039;re perfect, or that a small percentage of the population won&#039;t have an allergic reaction (as they might with any &quot;organic&quot; food.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John D, since your post is right above mine, the context is right there for all to see. I don&#8217;t see a problem. Quoting an entire post to highlight a single part isn&#8217;t good &#8220;netiquette&#8221;.</p>
<p>Yes it&#8217;s been said, on camera, more than once. And GM foods are probably the most tested things we eat. Does it mean they&#8217;re perfect, or that a small percentage of the population won&#8217;t have an allergic reaction (as they might with any &#8220;organic&#8221; food.)</p>
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		<title>By: John D.</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John D.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 05:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeff, in the first half of your post, you&#039;ve taken a very, very small part of my contribution completely out of context. But, I completely agree with you on the concern over third-arms though, if that&#039;s really what&#039;s been said. Regarding whether or not GM foods have been tested, I personally don&#039;t know; perhaps you can share?

John D.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff, in the first half of your post, you&#8217;ve taken a very, very small part of my contribution completely out of context. But, I completely agree with you on the concern over third-arms though, if that&#8217;s really what&#8217;s been said. Regarding whether or not GM foods have been tested, I personally don&#8217;t know; perhaps you can share?</p>
<p>John D.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38284</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 04:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Then members of said industries call those trying to impose some rules “wacko environmentalists” that are killing their respective industries. Circular reasoning?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

When Greenpeace activists tell shoppers at supermarkets that eating GM foods may cause you to grow a third arm, or that GM foods aren&#039;t tested, they&#039;re rightly labeled as &quot;whacko environmentalists&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Then members of said industries call those trying to impose some rules “wacko environmentalists” that are killing their respective industries. Circular reasoning?</p></blockquote>
<p>When Greenpeace activists tell shoppers at supermarkets that eating GM foods may cause you to grow a third arm, or that GM foods aren&#8217;t tested, they&#8217;re rightly labeled as &#8220;whacko environmentalists&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: John D.</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38213</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John D.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38213</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James G.

Your wariness of self-regulated industry is warrented.

Great case-studies of self-regulating industries might be found in the history of the California sardine fishery, the Atlantic cod fishery, the Atlantic Sworfishery, and the old-growth-dependant North American timber industry. What do all of these have in common? Moslty unregulated, rampant harvest with increasingly clever and efficient technologies,  to the point of diminishing return and industry collapse. A portion of the citizenry starts to recognize the problem and expresses concern, and then governement trys to impose regulations that yes, protect the environment, but also lead ultimately to sustainability of said industries. Then members of said industries call those trying to impose some rules &quot;wacko environmentalists&quot; that are killing their respective industries. Circular reasoning?

I remember once when I was working for the USFS in northeast California in the early &#039;90&#039;s; it was a Friday night at Laufman Station and a bunch of harvest inspectors, timber markers and cruisers were around the BBQ, along with a handful of &quot;ists&quot;...(biologists, hydrologists, archeologists, etc). The timber folks were complaining about that damn spotted owl and all of those tree-huggers destroying the old-growth timber economy. One of the biologists, getting a little impatient asked the timber folks...&quot;ok, let&#039;s say you guys were able to mark and cut the big timber here on the Plumas, Lassen and Modoc, as fast as you want, like you did in the late 70&#039;s and 80&#039;s; how long would it last? With some feet shuffling and mumbling, they confessed, about 7 to 10 or so years!

So if left unregulated, at this point in time, old-growth timber in Northeast California would last about a decade..maybe more! Who&#039;s at fault at the sad state of the timber industry..the &quot;Greens&quot;...the &quot;Guvinment&quot;...or unregulated industry?

John D.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James G.</p>
<p>Your wariness of self-regulated industry is warrented.</p>
<p>Great case-studies of self-regulating industries might be found in the history of the California sardine fishery, the Atlantic cod fishery, the Atlantic Sworfishery, and the old-growth-dependant North American timber industry. What do all of these have in common? Moslty unregulated, rampant harvest with increasingly clever and efficient technologies,  to the point of diminishing return and industry collapse. A portion of the citizenry starts to recognize the problem and expresses concern, and then governement trys to impose regulations that yes, protect the environment, but also lead ultimately to sustainability of said industries. Then members of said industries call those trying to impose some rules &#8220;wacko environmentalists&#8221; that are killing their respective industries. Circular reasoning?</p>
<p>I remember once when I was working for the USFS in northeast California in the early &#8217;90&#8242;s; it was a Friday night at Laufman Station and a bunch of harvest inspectors, timber markers and cruisers were around the BBQ, along with a handful of &#8220;ists&#8221;&#8230;(biologists, hydrologists, archeologists, etc). The timber folks were complaining about that damn spotted owl and all of those tree-huggers destroying the old-growth timber economy. One of the biologists, getting a little impatient asked the timber folks&#8230;&#8221;ok, let&#8217;s say you guys were able to mark and cut the big timber here on the Plumas, Lassen and Modoc, as fast as you want, like you did in the late 70&#8242;s and 80&#8242;s; how long would it last? With some feet shuffling and mumbling, they confessed, about 7 to 10 or so years!</p>
<p>So if left unregulated, at this point in time, old-growth timber in Northeast California would last about a decade..maybe more! Who&#8217;s at fault at the sad state of the timber industry..the &#8220;Greens&#8221;&#8230;the &#8220;Guvinment&#8221;&#8230;or unregulated industry?</p>
<p>John D.</p>
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		<title>By: JamesG</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38185</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JamesG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38185</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JeffL
I don&#039;t think we can take any environmental lessons from the oil companies thank you. I&#039;ve worked in the oil business too and I&#039;ve seen what goes on. Plus I&#039;ve lived near a refinery that chucks out all their worst crap at night-time when nobody sees it. What companies are supposed to do bears little relation to what they actually do and I wouldn&#039;t trust anyone to drill farther than they could get away with before dumping their junk. So yes, like the greens, I think the water table is in danger of being ruined. We&#039;ve already seen fish farms turning it salty. 

Every time somebody assumes we can trust industry to regulate themselves I despair of their naivete. The greens are simply trying to preserve our environment and it&#039;s an uphill struggle against people with deep pockets and zero conscience. Of course they are ritually pessimistic; it comes from bitter experience. Do you even realize the extent of the poisons, hormones, chemicals, effluent, raw sewage etc that is ritually chucked into our rivers and seas? Don&#039;t blame the greens for being misled about AGW - the fault lies squarely with the duplicitous scientists.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JeffL<br />
I don&#8217;t think we can take any environmental lessons from the oil companies thank you. I&#8217;ve worked in the oil business too and I&#8217;ve seen what goes on. Plus I&#8217;ve lived near a refinery that chucks out all their worst crap at night-time when nobody sees it. What companies are supposed to do bears little relation to what they actually do and I wouldn&#8217;t trust anyone to drill farther than they could get away with before dumping their junk. So yes, like the greens, I think the water table is in danger of being ruined. We&#8217;ve already seen fish farms turning it salty. </p>
<p>Every time somebody assumes we can trust industry to regulate themselves I despair of their naivete. The greens are simply trying to preserve our environment and it&#8217;s an uphill struggle against people with deep pockets and zero conscience. Of course they are ritually pessimistic; it comes from bitter experience. Do you even realize the extent of the poisons, hormones, chemicals, effluent, raw sewage etc that is ritually chucked into our rivers and seas? Don&#8217;t blame the greens for being misled about AGW &#8211; the fault lies squarely with the duplicitous scientists.</p>
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		<title>By: Retired Engineer</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38149</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Retired Engineer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38149</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I thought coal ash had a bit of thorium, not uranium.

While there are thousands of spent nuclear fuel rods that could be recycled, 90% of the total waste is leftover from the weapons programs. Hanford,  Oak Ridge, etc. Not nearly as useful, far more dangerous, with proper handling, could still be a source of energy. It takes a commitment of many folks to make it happen. Serious safety issues. We&#039;ll have to deal with them. We won&#039;t get one millijoule by just talking about it. 

That&#039;s the real problem - energy. To maintain or improve the quality of life, it takes energy. We can and should conserve, and be as efficient as possible. We still need energy, particularly in developing countries. Wind and solar may have a small place at the table, but serious energy means coal, gas, or nuclear. The first two have problems of supply and pollution. So does the third, but we can deal with them, particularly if we reprocess what we already have.

Transportation at the individual level will depend on room temperature liquid fuels for a long time. Absent a major breakthrough in batteries, nothing else has the energy density. Joe Sixpack isn&#039;t going to pump cryogenics or high pressures with much degree of safety.

All of which is a moot point if the folks with influence and power don&#039;t want it to happen. If the Greens, Enviros, AGW&#039;s and the like get their way, it won&#039;t happen. When the lights do go out, it may be too late.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought coal ash had a bit of thorium, not uranium.</p>
<p>While there are thousands of spent nuclear fuel rods that could be recycled, 90% of the total waste is leftover from the weapons programs. Hanford,  Oak Ridge, etc. Not nearly as useful, far more dangerous, with proper handling, could still be a source of energy. It takes a commitment of many folks to make it happen. Serious safety issues. We&#8217;ll have to deal with them. We won&#8217;t get one millijoule by just talking about it. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s the real problem &#8211; energy. To maintain or improve the quality of life, it takes energy. We can and should conserve, and be as efficient as possible. We still need energy, particularly in developing countries. Wind and solar may have a small place at the table, but serious energy means coal, gas, or nuclear. The first two have problems of supply and pollution. So does the third, but we can deal with them, particularly if we reprocess what we already have.</p>
<p>Transportation at the individual level will depend on room temperature liquid fuels for a long time. Absent a major breakthrough in batteries, nothing else has the energy density. Joe Sixpack isn&#8217;t going to pump cryogenics or high pressures with much degree of safety.</p>
<p>All of which is a moot point if the folks with influence and power don&#8217;t want it to happen. If the Greens, Enviros, AGW&#8217;s and the like get their way, it won&#8217;t happen. When the lights do go out, it may be too late.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkW</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38129</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve read that there is enough uranium in coal ash, that it would be considered nuclear waste if it hadn&#039;t been exempted by previous laws.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read that there is enough uranium in coal ash, that it would be considered nuclear waste if it hadn&#8217;t been exempted by previous laws.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Chappell</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan Chappell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The German people are lacking in logic, Living in Germany and watching the German public get eaten alive used to give me nightmares but realizing that they were lacking in logic I close my eyes to the problem. G. Schroeder took €385,000 a year for life after arranging a German government loan to finance a Russian pipeline to transport gas to Germany, he also conveniently destroyed most of the energy laws not related to Russian energy, the Germen people ? they thanked him for securing &#039;reliable&#039; energy for Germans future, for believing a man that has been married 5 times ( and about to be single again) and cost the country hundreds of billions of €  it shows how stupid the German public really is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The German people are lacking in logic, Living in Germany and watching the German public get eaten alive used to give me nightmares but realizing that they were lacking in logic I close my eyes to the problem. G. Schroeder took €385,000 a year for life after arranging a German government loan to finance a Russian pipeline to transport gas to Germany, he also conveniently destroyed most of the energy laws not related to Russian energy, the Germen people ? they thanked him for securing &#8216;reliable&#8217; energy for Germans future, for believing a man that has been married 5 times ( and about to be single again) and cost the country hundreds of billions of €  it shows how stupid the German public really is.</p>
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		<title>By: philw1776</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38069</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[philw1776]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[johnnyb:Thing with nuclear though, is that nuclear can not be used to transport anything smaller than a ship. Even a train is too small to use nuclear directly

Just a nit on your excellent post, but these new uranium hydride nuclear batteries would be great for powering trains and ships without the hassle of a nuclear reactor.  Roughly the size of a hot tub and just several tons in weight.  Last ~5 years.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/04/updates-on-uranium-hydride-reactor-and.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>johnnyb:Thing with nuclear though, is that nuclear can not be used to transport anything smaller than a ship. Even a train is too small to use nuclear directly</p>
<p>Just a nit on your excellent post, but these new uranium hydride nuclear batteries would be great for powering trains and ships without the hassle of a nuclear reactor.  Roughly the size of a hot tub and just several tons in weight.  Last ~5 years.</p>
<p><a href="http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/04/updates-on-uranium-hydride-reactor-and.html" rel="nofollow">http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/04/updates-on-uranium-hydride-reactor-and.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Harvey Wallbanger</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38041</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Harvey Wallbanger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38041</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anthony Watts wrote: I’ve always thought that the biggest issue with greens was not CO2 and AGW, but “progress in general”. 


My brother, you&#039;re not alone. See &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.the-thinking-man.com/clean-air-act.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt;, which drew some fire over at Realclimate in last Friday&#039;s Roundup (starting at about comment 60). Definitely worth a read.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony Watts wrote: I’ve always thought that the biggest issue with greens was not CO2 and AGW, but “progress in general”. </p>
<p>My brother, you&#8217;re not alone. See <a href="http://www.the-thinking-man.com/clean-air-act.html" rel="nofollow">this article</a>, which drew some fire over at Realclimate in last Friday&#8217;s Roundup (starting at about comment 60). Definitely worth a read.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike McMillan</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38029</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike McMillan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38029</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;
Bobby Lane (19:53:29): 
...There is nothing even inherently wrong with a one-world government if it does not ignore the free will of the people it governs. ...&lt;/i&gt;

One-world government inherently ignores the free will of its diverse subjects.   It is the ultimate smoothing algorithm, damping all that high frequency dissent into the straight trend line of government policy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
Bobby Lane (19:53:29):<br />
&#8230;There is nothing even inherently wrong with a one-world government if it does not ignore the free will of the people it governs. &#8230;</i></p>
<p>One-world government inherently ignores the free will of its diverse subjects.   It is the ultimate smoothing algorithm, damping all that high frequency dissent into the straight trend line of government policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe S</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38014</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 05:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38014</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Evan,

Dentistry is a big one for me.  Just in my lifetime (I&#039;m 58), a trip to the dentist has gone from a thing of dread to dang near a social event...flirting with the girls and talking about fishing with my dentist.  No anticipation at all except for the price tag on the crowns.

Often, I&#039;ve told him how good he is.  He gives technique some of the credit.  But, also he says their equipment is so much better these days.  One example:  Needles.  They&#039;re laser sharpened now and used once.  Painless!, when he uses his special technique.  Way back when, they were autoclaved, got dull over time and would tear tissue when jammed in.  Hurt like hell.  That tearing of tissue is what caused most all the discomfort after the deadening would wear off, also.  Gawd, I&#039;m long-winded.

[Reply - I bet I can trade you wind for wind! ~ Evan]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evan,</p>
<p>Dentistry is a big one for me.  Just in my lifetime (I&#8217;m 58), a trip to the dentist has gone from a thing of dread to dang near a social event&#8230;flirting with the girls and talking about fishing with my dentist.  No anticipation at all except for the price tag on the crowns.</p>
<p>Often, I&#8217;ve told him how good he is.  He gives technique some of the credit.  But, also he says their equipment is so much better these days.  One example:  Needles.  They&#8217;re laser sharpened now and used once.  Painless!, when he uses his special technique.  Way back when, they were autoclaved, got dull over time and would tear tissue when jammed in.  Hurt like hell.  That tearing of tissue is what caused most all the discomfort after the deadening would wear off, also.  Gawd, I&#8217;m long-winded.</p>
<p>[Reply - I bet I can trade you wind for wind! ~ Evan]</p>
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		<title>By: evanjones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38011</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[evanjones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 05:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38011</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m all in favor of that. (I just hope the moralistic nuts don&#039;t get in the way of cell renewal. I want very much to violate &quot;what God intended&quot;. That&#039;s the &lt;cite&gt;point&lt;/cite&gt;.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all in favor of that. (I just hope the moralistic nuts don&#8217;t get in the way of cell renewal. I want very much to violate &#8220;what God intended&#8221;. That&#8217;s the <cite>point</cite>.)</p>
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		<title>By: statePoet1775</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/08/co2-less-coal-power-plant-draws-green-ire-anyway/#comment-38007</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[statePoet1775]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 05:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2878#comment-38007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No luddite here.  &quot;Better living through thermonuclear biochemistry&quot; is my motto.  Did I miss any toes?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No luddite here.  &#8220;Better living through thermonuclear biochemistry&#8221; is my motto.  Did I miss any toes?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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