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	<title>Comments on: Noctilucent clouds and the Earth&#8217;s interface with space</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: Mike Bryant</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34574</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bryant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34574</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is a nice video on noctilucent clouds on the AIM project page at LASP.
http://lasp.colorado.edu/aim/aim_highlights.htm

enjoy!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a nice video on noctilucent clouds on the AIM project page at LASP.<br />
<a href="http://lasp.colorado.edu/aim/aim_highlights.htm" rel="nofollow">http://lasp.colorado.edu/aim/aim_highlights.htm</a></p>
<p>enjoy!</p>
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		<title>By: Fernando Mafili</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34526</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fernando Mafili]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34526</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another mechanism: neutral: for water in the mesopause.
 http://www.atm.helsinki.fi/~tpnousia/nlcgal/nlcinfo.html


ENSO conditions: it may influence the concentration of  OH in mesopause?
http://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/EPS/pdf/5204/52040261.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another mechanism: neutral: for water in the mesopause.<br />
 <a href="http://www.atm.helsinki.fi/~tpnousia/nlcgal/nlcinfo.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.atm.helsinki.fi/~tpnousia/nlcgal/nlcinfo.html</a></p>
<p>ENSO conditions: it may influence the concentration of  OH in mesopause?<br />
<a href="http://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/EPS/pdf/5204/52040261.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/EPS/pdf/5204/52040261.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lucy Skywalker</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34518</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lucy Skywalker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34518</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What beautiful clouds! They have the same unearthly quality as the auroras. Really feel the cosmic energies tapping on our windowpane there.

However - is anyone considering the combined effect of lower solar magnetic flux plus steadily-falling geomagnetic field? More clouds? We&#039;ve hardly seen the Sun all August in the UK.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What beautiful clouds! They have the same unearthly quality as the auroras. Really feel the cosmic energies tapping on our windowpane there.</p>
<p>However &#8211; is anyone considering the combined effect of lower solar magnetic flux plus steadily-falling geomagnetic field? More clouds? We&#8217;ve hardly seen the Sun all August in the UK.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34432</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34432</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s the problem! We&#039;ve got the spirits of luck dragons flying high in the atmosphere!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the problem! We&#8217;ve got the spirits of luck dragons flying high in the atmosphere!</p>
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		<title>By: Caleb</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34425</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Caleb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Slightly off topic:

At sunset two nights ago,  here in New Hampshire,  I noted that,  very subtle in a deep blue and cloudless twilight sky,  were faint wave-clouds of the dimmest grey.  At the time I wondered if ash from the Alaskan eruption in early August was passing over.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slightly off topic:</p>
<p>At sunset two nights ago,  here in New Hampshire,  I noted that,  very subtle in a deep blue and cloudless twilight sky,  were faint wave-clouds of the dimmest grey.  At the time I wondered if ash from the Alaskan eruption in early August was passing over.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul  Linsay</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34394</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul  Linsay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 01:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Powerpoint presentation is quite interesting.  Slide 11, NLC Occurrence Versus Time, is quite well correlated with sunspot numbers.  When sunspots are high the NLC count is low and vice versa.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Powerpoint presentation is quite interesting.  Slide 11, NLC Occurrence Versus Time, is quite well correlated with sunspot numbers.  When sunspots are high the NLC count is low and vice versa.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Robert Wood</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Wood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PeterW,

Those renamed, newly-moustachioed, NASA types will be railing against the Hydrogen economy as it generates water vapour, and demanding the use of Carbon. Hehehe :-)

BTW I saw a TV ad recently for a Toyota, I think, hydrogen powered car. Environmentally friendly as it produces only H2O, not CO2.

Hmm, I thought, water vapour is the worst greenhouse gas, isn&#039;t it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PeterW,</p>
<p>Those renamed, newly-moustachioed, NASA types will be railing against the Hydrogen economy as it generates water vapour, and demanding the use of Carbon. Hehehe :-)</p>
<p>BTW I saw a TV ad recently for a Toyota, I think, hydrogen powered car. Environmentally friendly as it produces only H2O, not CO2.</p>
<p>Hmm, I thought, water vapour is the worst greenhouse gas, isn&#8217;t it.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Wood</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34380</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Wood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34380</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;Thus, it appears, NLCs are another indication of climate change&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Well, so?  Waves are an indication of ocean surface change. Earthquakes are an indication of land surface change. 

I just somehow think that those last few slides were thrown in to get the further funding. Pity; spoiled an otherwise informative presentation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Thus, it appears, NLCs are another indication of climate change&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Well, so?  Waves are an indication of ocean surface change. Earthquakes are an indication of land surface change. </p>
<p>I just somehow think that those last few slides were thrown in to get the further funding. Pity; spoiled an otherwise informative presentation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: statePoet1775</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34368</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[statePoet1775]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34368</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Others might counter that if so few humans with relatively primitive technologies were able to alter the course of climate so significantly, then we have reason to be concerned about the current rise of greenhouse gases to unparalleled concentrations at unprecedented rates. &quot; Trevor Pugh

Hmmm.  Could it be that mankind is somehow special?  Could it be that you know Who keeps our climate stable? Or did our campfires produce enough CO2 to ward off global cooling?  I doubt the latter.

Its all connected.

Life is so interesting now.  Dang that Chinese curse.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Others might counter that if so few humans with relatively primitive technologies were able to alter the course of climate so significantly, then we have reason to be concerned about the current rise of greenhouse gases to unparalleled concentrations at unprecedented rates. &#8221; Trevor Pugh</p>
<p>Hmmm.  Could it be that mankind is somehow special?  Could it be that you know Who keeps our climate stable? Or did our campfires produce enough CO2 to ward off global cooling?  I doubt the latter.</p>
<p>Its all connected.</p>
<p>Life is so interesting now.  Dang that Chinese curse.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MattN</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34364</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MattN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That was a good powerpoint presentation, until it blamed manmade CO2 for it...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was a good powerpoint presentation, until it blamed manmade CO2 for it&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Trevor Pugh</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34361</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trevor Pugh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34361</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We have been touching on this issue of ‘are we naturally heading toward an ice age that is being warded off by global warming’ for quite a while on this blog.  I have posted a link to a Scientific American article published in 2005 titled HOW DID HUMANS FIRST ALTER GLOBAL CLIMATE?   

This article offers an alternate explanation to Fred Hoyle’s meteor on demand theory, although I wouldn’t count that out as a possibility; for the last 400K years or so.  

I keep coming back to this article because it provides an effective explanation for both warming and cooling.  Here are two links to the author William Ruddiman and the article I refer to.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ruddiman
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=how-did-humans-first-alte

I don’t think I can reproduce the article here as Scientific American still wants payment for it but it is more than worth the read.  I offer this excerpt from his conclusions which I believe is ok to reproduce (up to you Anthony).

Implications for the Future

The conclusion that humans prevented a cooling and arguably stopped the initial stage of a glacial cycle bears directly on a long-running dispute over what global climate has in store for us in the near future. Part of the reason that policymakers had trouble embracing the initial predictions of global warming in the 1980s was that a number of scientists had spent the previous decade telling everyone almost exactly the opposite—that an ice age was on its way. Based on the new confirmation that orbital variations control the growth and decay of ice sheets, some scientists studying these longer-scale changes had reasonably concluded that the next ice age might be only a few hundred or at most a few thousand years away.

In subsequent years, however, investigators found that greenhouse gas concentrations were rising rapidly and that the earth’s climate was warming, at least in part because of the gas increases. This evidence convinced most scientists that the relatively near-term future (the next century or two) would be dominated by global warming rather than by global cooling. This revised prediction, based on an improved understanding of the climate system, led some policymakers to discount all forecasts—whether of global warming or an impending ice age—as untrustworthy.

My findings add a new wrinkle to each scenario. If anything, such forecasts of an “impending” ice age were actually understated: new ice sheets should have begun to grow several millennia ago. The ice failed to grow because human-induced global warming actually began far earlier than previously thought—well before the industrial era.  

In these kinds of hotly contested topics that touch on public policy, scientific results are often used for opposing ends.  Global-warming skeptics could cite my work as evidence that human-generated greenhouse gases played a beneficial role for several thousand years by keeping the earth’s climate more hospitable than it would otherwise have been.  Others might counter that if so few humans with relatively primitive technologies were able to alter the course of climate so significantly, then we have reason to be concerned about the current rise of greenhouse gases to unparalleled concentrations at unprecedented rates. 

The rapid warming of the past century is probably destined to persist for at least 200 years, until the economically accessible fossil fuels become scarce.  Once that happens, the earth’s climate should begin to cool gradually as the deep ocean slowly absorbs the pulse of excess CO2 from human activities. Whether global climate will cool enough to produce the long-overdue glaciations or remain warm enough to avoid that fate is impossible to predict.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have been touching on this issue of ‘are we naturally heading toward an ice age that is being warded off by global warming’ for quite a while on this blog.  I have posted a link to a Scientific American article published in 2005 titled HOW DID HUMANS FIRST ALTER GLOBAL CLIMATE?   </p>
<p>This article offers an alternate explanation to Fred Hoyle’s meteor on demand theory, although I wouldn’t count that out as a possibility; for the last 400K years or so.  </p>
<p>I keep coming back to this article because it provides an effective explanation for both warming and cooling.  Here are two links to the author William Ruddiman and the article I refer to.  </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ruddiman" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ruddiman</a><br />
<a href="http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=how-did-humans-first-alte" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=how-did-humans-first-alte</a></p>
<p>I don’t think I can reproduce the article here as Scientific American still wants payment for it but it is more than worth the read.  I offer this excerpt from his conclusions which I believe is ok to reproduce (up to you Anthony).</p>
<p>Implications for the Future</p>
<p>The conclusion that humans prevented a cooling and arguably stopped the initial stage of a glacial cycle bears directly on a long-running dispute over what global climate has in store for us in the near future. Part of the reason that policymakers had trouble embracing the initial predictions of global warming in the 1980s was that a number of scientists had spent the previous decade telling everyone almost exactly the opposite—that an ice age was on its way. Based on the new confirmation that orbital variations control the growth and decay of ice sheets, some scientists studying these longer-scale changes had reasonably concluded that the next ice age might be only a few hundred or at most a few thousand years away.</p>
<p>In subsequent years, however, investigators found that greenhouse gas concentrations were rising rapidly and that the earth’s climate was warming, at least in part because of the gas increases. This evidence convinced most scientists that the relatively near-term future (the next century or two) would be dominated by global warming rather than by global cooling. This revised prediction, based on an improved understanding of the climate system, led some policymakers to discount all forecasts—whether of global warming or an impending ice age—as untrustworthy.</p>
<p>My findings add a new wrinkle to each scenario. If anything, such forecasts of an “impending” ice age were actually understated: new ice sheets should have begun to grow several millennia ago. The ice failed to grow because human-induced global warming actually began far earlier than previously thought—well before the industrial era.  </p>
<p>In these kinds of hotly contested topics that touch on public policy, scientific results are often used for opposing ends.  Global-warming skeptics could cite my work as evidence that human-generated greenhouse gases played a beneficial role for several thousand years by keeping the earth’s climate more hospitable than it would otherwise have been.  Others might counter that if so few humans with relatively primitive technologies were able to alter the course of climate so significantly, then we have reason to be concerned about the current rise of greenhouse gases to unparalleled concentrations at unprecedented rates. </p>
<p>The rapid warming of the past century is probably destined to persist for at least 200 years, until the economically accessible fossil fuels become scarce.  Once that happens, the earth’s climate should begin to cool gradually as the deep ocean slowly absorbs the pulse of excess CO2 from human activities. Whether global climate will cool enough to produce the long-overdue glaciations or remain warm enough to avoid that fate is impossible to predict.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Gulrud</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34357</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary Gulrud]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This Austin is a live one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This Austin is a live one.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Fernando Mafili</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34352</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fernando Mafili]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34352</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anthony; 
Your intuition is great. 
Now we have. 
1 - clouds (real) 
2 - Nuclei (true) 
3 - Correlated with solar activity 
4 - Possibly correlated with the terrestrial magnetic field. 
5 - The isotopic analysis will provide the source of water. 

The numbers of LOTTO, please]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony;<br />
Your intuition is great.<br />
Now we have.<br />
1 &#8211; clouds (real)<br />
2 &#8211; Nuclei (true)<br />
3 &#8211; Correlated with solar activity<br />
4 &#8211; Possibly correlated with the terrestrial magnetic field.<br />
5 &#8211; The isotopic analysis will provide the source of water. </p>
<p>The numbers of LOTTO, please</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Flood</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34316</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Julian Flood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Back in the late 60s we trained for high level navigation by flying out to 18 or 20 W from the UK. The first trip I saw a nacreous cloud, big, fat, blobby, very white. It was fairly well above us -- we were at forty fivish thousand feet. The next night in the same area was a noctilucent cloud, really high. I have wondered if the two sighting were connected.

quote But then you could argue that there’s been some creative Science Fiction generated with an AGW theme in the last decade or two :-)  unquote

I ought to be grateful to AGW in a way -- I wrote a short story about global cooling and sold it to Analog. A writer may gain respect from any of the big three, but only Analog brings self-respect... Thank you, Dr Hansen.

JF]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back in the late 60s we trained for high level navigation by flying out to 18 or 20 W from the UK. The first trip I saw a nacreous cloud, big, fat, blobby, very white. It was fairly well above us &#8212; we were at forty fivish thousand feet. The next night in the same area was a noctilucent cloud, really high. I have wondered if the two sighting were connected.</p>
<p>quote But then you could argue that there’s been some creative Science Fiction generated with an AGW theme in the last decade or two :-)  unquote</p>
<p>I ought to be grateful to AGW in a way &#8212; I wrote a short story about global cooling and sold it to Analog. A writer may gain respect from any of the big three, but only Analog brings self-respect&#8230; Thank you, Dr Hansen.</p>
<p>JF</p>
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		<title>By: statePoet1775</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/26/noctilucent-clouds-and-the-earths-interface-with-space/#comment-34284</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[statePoet1775]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=2490#comment-34284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, can&#039;t help myself:

&lt;i&gt;From the stark black of space
through wrenching shades of blue
and onto the ground
through sad shades of brown.&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, can&#8217;t help myself:</p>
<p><i>From the stark black of space<br />
through wrenching shades of blue<br />
and onto the ground<br />
through sad shades of brown.</i></p>
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