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	<title>Comments on: Penn and Teller on Carbon Credits</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/</link>
	<description>Commentary on puzzling things in life, nature, science, weather, climate change, technology, and recent news by Anthony Watts</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:06:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Zig</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-71381</link>
		<dc:creator>Zig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-71381</guid>
		<description>Ok, Pen and Teller and bending the facts a lot here, shame, they should be better informed. Here is a link to a serious website that will crush anyones ignorance about the facts of global warming, which is absolutely real: http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2008/07/how_to_talk_to_a_sceptic.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, Pen and Teller and bending the facts a lot here, shame, they should be better informed. Here is a link to a serious website that will crush anyones ignorance about the facts of global warming, which is absolutely real: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2008/07/how_to_talk_to_a_sceptic.php" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2008/07/how_to_talk_to_a_sceptic.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-71032</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 02:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-71032</guid>
		<description>The obscenities in Penn &amp; Tellers bullshit aren&#039;t for comic effect but because if they call people liers then they can be sued, however calling someone names is legally safe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The obscenities in Penn &amp; Tellers bullshit aren&#8217;t for comic effect but because if they call people liers then they can be sued, however calling someone names is legally safe.</p>
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		<title>By: IT Guy</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28730</link>
		<dc:creator>IT Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 02:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28730</guid>
		<description>Dude,
 I agree with your stance on global warming, but that Penn &amp; Teller video link tries to install Zango on your machine. Zango is spyware. Telling people it&#039;s safe is not cool.

&lt;strong&gt;REPLY:&lt;/strong&gt; Hmmm, I didn&#039;t notice any such thing when I connected, and my spyware scan comes up clean

&lt;strong&gt;REPLY 2: &lt;/strong&gt; from charles the moderator--Anthony, I just checked and this requirement has been added, so IT Guy may be correct, but the need to install Zango was not there last week when you originally made this posting.

&lt;strong&gt;REPLY 3&lt;/strong&gt;: Thanks for the heads up, I&#039;ve removed the link to VREEL and added links to YouTube, which has the video now. When it first was released, only VREEL had it, and yes VREEL has started installing spyware. I&#039;ll never use them again for any purpose - idiots. - Anthony</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dude,<br />
 I agree with your stance on global warming, but that Penn &amp; Teller video link tries to install Zango on your machine. Zango is spyware. Telling people it&#8217;s safe is not cool.</p>
<p><strong>REPLY:</strong> Hmmm, I didn&#8217;t notice any such thing when I connected, and my spyware scan comes up clean</p>
<p><strong>REPLY 2: </strong> from charles the moderator&#8211;Anthony, I just checked and this requirement has been added, so IT Guy may be correct, but the need to install Zango was not there last week when you originally made this posting.</p>
<p><strong>REPLY 3</strong>: Thanks for the heads up, I&#8217;ve removed the link to VREEL and added links to YouTube, which has the video now. When it first was released, only VREEL had it, and yes VREEL has started installing spyware. I&#8217;ll never use them again for any purpose &#8211; idiots. &#8211; Anthony</p>
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		<title>By: rtw</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28342</link>
		<dc:creator>rtw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28342</guid>
		<description>A few months ago, I got myself 80 trillion carbon offsets from www.freecarbonoffsets.com and haven&#039;t worried about eco-guilt since.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few months ago, I got myself 80 trillion carbon offsets from <a href="http://www.freecarbonoffsets.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.freecarbonoffsets.com</a> and haven&#8217;t worried about eco-guilt since.</p>
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		<title>By: guacamoby</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28335</link>
		<dc:creator>guacamoby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28335</guid>
		<description>bullshit=awsome show that &quot;calls&quot; the best BS in the world today. Damn hippies - the world has been warming since the ice age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bullshit=awsome show that &#8220;calls&#8221; the best BS in the world today. Damn hippies &#8211; the world has been warming since the ice age.</p>
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		<title>By: steveward</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28291</link>
		<dc:creator>steveward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28291</guid>
		<description>i add this too my blog

http://steveward.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/live-better/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i add this too my blog</p>
<p><a href="http://steveward.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/live-better/" rel="nofollow">http://steveward.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/live-better/</a></p>
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		<title>By: live better &#171; Steveward&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28290</link>
		<dc:creator>live better &#171; Steveward&#8217;s Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28290</guid>
		<description>[...] Penn and Teller on Carbon Credits [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Penn and Teller on Carbon Credits [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Richard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28287</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28287</guid>
		<description>For those people using Mac OS X, there is an excellent quicktime codec that will play just about any format, including divx. It&#039;s available at http://perian.org/. And it&#039;s free! I&#039;m not affiliated with them, but this little gem has opened up a world of videos by allowing them to play, and it&#039;s never caused any compatibility issues. Enjoy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those people using Mac OS X, there is an excellent quicktime codec that will play just about any format, including divx. It&#8217;s available at <a href="http://perian.org/" rel="nofollow">http://perian.org/</a>. And it&#8217;s free! I&#8217;m not affiliated with them, but this little gem has opened up a world of videos by allowing them to play, and it&#8217;s never caused any compatibility issues. Enjoy.</p>
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		<title>By: Leon Brozyna</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28233</link>
		<dc:creator>Leon Brozyna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28233</guid>
		<description>Evan Jones ( 21:21:46 ) 

Before we get too excited about Peak Oil, there&#039;s some interesting thinking in that arena which, if true, would make concerns about natural resource exhaustion (at least for oil) a bit silly. Check out this article:

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/3952

As well, check out a more in-depth look at the resurrected theory of the abiotic origins of oil at:

http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm

Now if (and that&#039;s a mighty big if) this idea holds water, then oil will never run out as it&#039;s being continuously created. Just some fascinating thinking for the geology community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evan Jones ( 21:21:46 ) </p>
<p>Before we get too excited about Peak Oil, there&#8217;s some interesting thinking in that arena which, if true, would make concerns about natural resource exhaustion (at least for oil) a bit silly. Check out this article:</p>
<p><a href="http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/3952" rel="nofollow">http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/3952</a></p>
<p>As well, check out a more in-depth look at the resurrected theory of the abiotic origins of oil at:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm</a></p>
<p>Now if (and that&#8217;s a mighty big if) this idea holds water, then oil will never run out as it&#8217;s being continuously created. Just some fascinating thinking for the geology community.</p>
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		<title>By: Retired Engineer</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28201</link>
		<dc:creator>Retired Engineer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28201</guid>
		<description>re: Microwave density from Solar Power Satellite.

Assuming a &#039;rectantenna&#039; 10km x 20km in size (how many GaAS diodes will that need?) and 1 GW power at 100% conversion, it works out to about 5 watts/m^2 on average. Assume Gaussian distribution and you have 10 W/m^2 near the center, or 1 mw/cm^2. The Federal exposure standard is 10 microwatts/cm^2, the Euro standard is 1 microwatt. So you are 100x over the limit. Death Star, anyone ?

Conversion efficiency: Glaser didn&#039;t invent the concept, he was a strong proponent. He claimed 90% end-to-end efficiency. My associates in the microwave business said 1% was probable. NASA tried it, put 2 MW in, got 100 W out. Not a lot of publicity on that one. Space isn&#039;t empty, you will have absorption and scattering losses. The air will cause as much or more, even though it is only the last 10 or so miles. PV conversion runs no more than 20%. Assuming 10% RF conversion, you&#039;ll need to start with at least 10 GW to get 1 GW out, and that will require a collector of about 36 million m^2 (9000 acres). A whole lot of silicon, for 1 GW output power. The U.S. currently produces around 100 GW of electricity.

Assuming geostationary or geosync orbit, the satellite should see sun all the time, with the Earth&#039;s axial tilt. With a big enough dish antenna on the transmitting end, you could keep the beam focused. But every antenna has side lobes, and with a multi GW source, not trivial. Even 0.01% (absurdly small) gives you 100+ KW. Compared with the 100 W of comm satellites. Goodbye communication. And radio astronomy. Not the same frequency, doesn&#039;t matter. You de-sensitize the RF front end of the receiver on all frequencies. (been there, done that)

Somehow, I rather doubt space access will get much less expensive. The physics of that hasn&#039;t changed since Goddard was tinkering 80 years ago.  Rutan&#039;s Space Ship 1 could never make orbit. And building high efficiency solar cells on one of the dirtiest places in the neighborhood doesn&#039;t sound overly practical, let alone getting the equipment needed to the moon in the first place.

These were only a few of the problems with the SPS, which is why it was abandoned in the early 80&#039;s.

/anti-SPS rant off</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: Microwave density from Solar Power Satellite.</p>
<p>Assuming a &#8216;rectantenna&#8217; 10km x 20km in size (how many GaAS diodes will that need?) and 1 GW power at 100% conversion, it works out to about 5 watts/m^2 on average. Assume Gaussian distribution and you have 10 W/m^2 near the center, or 1 mw/cm^2. The Federal exposure standard is 10 microwatts/cm^2, the Euro standard is 1 microwatt. So you are 100x over the limit. Death Star, anyone ?</p>
<p>Conversion efficiency: Glaser didn&#8217;t invent the concept, he was a strong proponent. He claimed 90% end-to-end efficiency. My associates in the microwave business said 1% was probable. NASA tried it, put 2 MW in, got 100 W out. Not a lot of publicity on that one. Space isn&#8217;t empty, you will have absorption and scattering losses. The air will cause as much or more, even though it is only the last 10 or so miles. PV conversion runs no more than 20%. Assuming 10% RF conversion, you&#8217;ll need to start with at least 10 GW to get 1 GW out, and that will require a collector of about 36 million m^2 (9000 acres). A whole lot of silicon, for 1 GW output power. The U.S. currently produces around 100 GW of electricity.</p>
<p>Assuming geostationary or geosync orbit, the satellite should see sun all the time, with the Earth&#8217;s axial tilt. With a big enough dish antenna on the transmitting end, you could keep the beam focused. But every antenna has side lobes, and with a multi GW source, not trivial. Even 0.01% (absurdly small) gives you 100+ KW. Compared with the 100 W of comm satellites. Goodbye communication. And radio astronomy. Not the same frequency, doesn&#8217;t matter. You de-sensitize the RF front end of the receiver on all frequencies. (been there, done that)</p>
<p>Somehow, I rather doubt space access will get much less expensive. The physics of that hasn&#8217;t changed since Goddard was tinkering 80 years ago.  Rutan&#8217;s Space Ship 1 could never make orbit. And building high efficiency solar cells on one of the dirtiest places in the neighborhood doesn&#8217;t sound overly practical, let alone getting the equipment needed to the moon in the first place.</p>
<p>These were only a few of the problems with the SPS, which is why it was abandoned in the early 80&#8217;s.</p>
<p>/anti-SPS rant off</p>
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		<title>By: David L. Hagen</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28192</link>
		<dc:creator>David L. Hagen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28192</guid>
		<description>Evan Jones
&quot;I think the Peak Oil flap is the same basic error the Club of Rome made back in the ’70s and ’80s, recycled.&quot; - You apparently are not familiar with the foundational geophysics or economics and logistics of transitioning to other resources with high capital costs.

Peak Oil = Resource Half Consumed (typically 55% consumed at peak). Yes 45% will still be discovered. BUT the price rises till you have &quot;demand destruction&quot; OR provide alternative fuels in sufficient supply to meet transport desires.

The challenge is the dynamics of the transition the transition. Welcome to the fuel transition roller coaster!
And pray that you don&#039;t crash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evan Jones<br />
&#8220;I think the Peak Oil flap is the same basic error the Club of Rome made back in the ’70s and ’80s, recycled.&#8221; &#8211; You apparently are not familiar with the foundational geophysics or economics and logistics of transitioning to other resources with high capital costs.</p>
<p>Peak Oil = Resource Half Consumed (typically 55% consumed at peak). Yes 45% will still be discovered. BUT the price rises till you have &#8220;demand destruction&#8221; OR provide alternative fuels in sufficient supply to meet transport desires.</p>
<p>The challenge is the dynamics of the transition the transition. Welcome to the fuel transition roller coaster!<br />
And pray that you don&#8217;t crash.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncivil Servant</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28172</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncivil Servant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28172</guid>
		<description>Bill P (12:46:36) : 

In the context of your post, you might find this article interesting:

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/02/0081908

&lt;blockquote&gt;We have learned that the industry in any given bubble must support hundreds or thousands of separate firms financed by not billions but trillions of dollars in new securities that Wall Street will create and sell. Like housing in the late 1990s, this sector of the economy must already be formed and growing even as the previous bubble deflates. For those investing in that sector, legislation guaranteeing favorable tax treatment, along with other protections and advantages for investors, should already be in place or under review. Finally, the industry must be popular, its name on the lips of government policymakers and journalists. It should be familiar to those who watch television news or read newspapers.

There are a number of plausible candidates for the next bubble, but only a few meet all the criteria...

[SNIP]

...There is one industry that fits the bill: alternative energy, the development of more energy-efficient products, along with viable alternatives to oil, including wind, solar, and geothermal power, along with the use of nuclear energy to produce sustainable oil substitutes, such as liquefied hydrogen from water. Indeed, the next bubble is already being branded.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill P (12:46:36) : </p>
<p>In the context of your post, you might find this article interesting:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/02/0081908" rel="nofollow">http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/02/0081908</a></p>
<blockquote><p>We have learned that the industry in any given bubble must support hundreds or thousands of separate firms financed by not billions but trillions of dollars in new securities that Wall Street will create and sell. Like housing in the late 1990s, this sector of the economy must already be formed and growing even as the previous bubble deflates. For those investing in that sector, legislation guaranteeing favorable tax treatment, along with other protections and advantages for investors, should already be in place or under review. Finally, the industry must be popular, its name on the lips of government policymakers and journalists. It should be familiar to those who watch television news or read newspapers.</p>
<p>There are a number of plausible candidates for the next bubble, but only a few meet all the criteria&#8230;</p>
<p>[SNIP]</p>
<p>&#8230;There is one industry that fits the bill: alternative energy, the development of more energy-efficient products, along with viable alternatives to oil, including wind, solar, and geothermal power, along with the use of nuclear energy to produce sustainable oil substitutes, such as liquefied hydrogen from water. Indeed, the next bubble is already being branded.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: MDM</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28169</link>
		<dc:creator>MDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28169</guid>
		<description>Who the f**k wrote the f**cking script for that show?  F**king Al Pacino?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who the f**k wrote the f**cking script for that show?  F**king Al Pacino?</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Jamison</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28163</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Jamison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28163</guid>
		<description>I saw a Toyota Prius with a TerraPass bumper sticker on it today - now that&#039;s some serious eco guilt when you need to buy carbon offsets for your Prius!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw a Toyota Prius with a TerraPass bumper sticker on it today &#8211; now that&#8217;s some serious eco guilt when you need to buy carbon offsets for your Prius!</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Jones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28162</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28162</guid>
		<description>David Hagen: Yes, noted. (And well put.) But shales, tars, bitumens are what&#039;s really plentiful. It becomes profitable at around 30 to 50 bucks a barrel and is essentially unlimited.

And there may be a lot of light crude out there--exploration is still very restricted. The Bakken Shale is light crude (though it requires horizontal drilling to get that dolomite strip) and may run a half trillion barrels by the time they&#039;re through with it. The 3+ billion barrel number is up 20-fold from a few years back. Expect that number to keep growing.

I think the Peak Oil flap is the same basic error the Club of Rome made back in the &#039;70s and &#039;80s, recycled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Hagen: Yes, noted. (And well put.) But shales, tars, bitumens are what&#8217;s really plentiful. It becomes profitable at around 30 to 50 bucks a barrel and is essentially unlimited.</p>
<p>And there may be a lot of light crude out there&#8211;exploration is still very restricted. The Bakken Shale is light crude (though it requires horizontal drilling to get that dolomite strip) and may run a half trillion barrels by the time they&#8217;re through with it. The 3+ billion barrel number is up 20-fold from a few years back. Expect that number to keep growing.</p>
<p>I think the Peak Oil flap is the same basic error the Club of Rome made back in the &#8217;70s and &#8217;80s, recycled.</p>
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		<title>By: DAV</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28161</link>
		<dc:creator>DAV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28161</guid>
		<description>Bill (14:04:48) :  &lt;i&gt;I heard they would be using microwaves, not lasers, to transmit the energy.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, microwave is the baseline concept. One of the problems with microwave though is being able to concentrate the beam so that the entire visible hemisphere isn&#039;t being irradiated. Far easier to do it with light. 

One additional advantage with light is that the atmosphere is mostly transparent to it. If the beam is tight enough, the laser wouldn&#039;t not  be visible outside of the target area.

Environmentalists will howl no matter what though. It&#039;s the environmental impact statement that will forever kill solar power satellites. At least until some catastrophic need arises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill (14:04:48) :  <i>I heard they would be using microwaves, not lasers, to transmit the energy.</i></p>
<p>Yes, microwave is the baseline concept. One of the problems with microwave though is being able to concentrate the beam so that the entire visible hemisphere isn&#8217;t being irradiated. Far easier to do it with light. </p>
<p>One additional advantage with light is that the atmosphere is mostly transparent to it. If the beam is tight enough, the laser wouldn&#8217;t not  be visible outside of the target area.</p>
<p>Environmentalists will howl no matter what though. It&#8217;s the environmental impact statement that will forever kill solar power satellites. At least until some catastrophic need arises.</p>
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		<title>By: DAV</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28160</link>
		<dc:creator>DAV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28160</guid>
		<description>@MarkW (13:35:24) :

I&#039;ve been saying geosynch but I really am thinking geostationary -- they aren&#039;t the same thing. The latter only work in equatorial orbits.

The problem is not so much to keep the satellite in sunlight but to do so and remain visible to the ground. Only an equatorial (well, near-equatorial) orbit can accomplish this. The basic problem is that there aren&#039;t many orbits (I&#039;m hedging here -- I believe there are none) that would allow a satellite to remain in sunlight and also be visible from the Earth&#039;s night side. The moon is visible all night but it, too, sometimes enters the Earth&#039;s umbra. Note that the moon isn&#039;t visible 24/7 anyway so lunar orbit won&#039;t work either. Multiple spacecraft perhaps would.

Multiple ground stations and a sun-synch orbit might be the only real answer. Until there&#039;s a global power grid, a solar power spacecraft would only be usable about 12 hours per day (on the average) at any given station.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@MarkW (13:35:24) :</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been saying geosynch but I really am thinking geostationary &#8212; they aren&#8217;t the same thing. The latter only work in equatorial orbits.</p>
<p>The problem is not so much to keep the satellite in sunlight but to do so and remain visible to the ground. Only an equatorial (well, near-equatorial) orbit can accomplish this. The basic problem is that there aren&#8217;t many orbits (I&#8217;m hedging here &#8212; I believe there are none) that would allow a satellite to remain in sunlight and also be visible from the Earth&#8217;s night side. The moon is visible all night but it, too, sometimes enters the Earth&#8217;s umbra. Note that the moon isn&#8217;t visible 24/7 anyway so lunar orbit won&#8217;t work either. Multiple spacecraft perhaps would.</p>
<p>Multiple ground stations and a sun-synch orbit might be the only real answer. Until there&#8217;s a global power grid, a solar power spacecraft would only be usable about 12 hours per day (on the average) at any given station.</p>
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		<title>By: John Van Krimpen</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28157</link>
		<dc:creator>John Van Krimpen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28157</guid>
		<description>Anthony.
Just had a look at your site counter. I reckon the only thing being driven up by CO2 hot air, is your site hits.

That&#039;s what the Global temperature graph should look like.

Thanks for your work.

&lt;strong&gt;REPLY:&lt;/strong&gt; Thank you. Getting hits is not my mission, getting the word out on issues with data integrity and unsupportable news stories is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony.<br />
Just had a look at your site counter. I reckon the only thing being driven up by CO2 hot air, is your site hits.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what the Global temperature graph should look like.</p>
<p>Thanks for your work.</p>
<p><strong>REPLY:</strong> Thank you. Getting hits is not my mission, getting the word out on issues with data integrity and unsupportable news stories is.</p>
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		<title>By: Pofarmer</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28149</link>
		<dc:creator>Pofarmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28149</guid>
		<description>For those wondering about Al Gore, I beleive he holds a very large percentage share of a Carbon trading Company.  When he buys credits, he&#039;s buying them from himself.  Keep that in mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those wondering about Al Gore, I beleive he holds a very large percentage share of a Carbon trading Company.  When he buys credits, he&#8217;s buying them from himself.  Keep that in mind.</p>
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		<title>By: David L. Hagen</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/27/penn-and-teller-on-carbon-credits/#comment-28148</link>
		<dc:creator>David L. Hagen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1890#comment-28148</guid>
		<description>Evan Jones et al. on Peak Oil

The issue is rapid depletion of &quot;CHEAP LIGHT OIL&quot;
NOT
Total hydrocarbons.
US conventional oil production peaked in 1970. We are now importing some 65%. We have &quot;plenty&quot; of oil shale - why is no one falling over themselves to get it?

Yes there are &quot;trillions&quot; of barrels of &quot;hydrocarbon resources&quot; out there - problem is that you now have to take bitumen (aka &quot;tar&quot;) and convert it to gasoline. Extraction and conversion capital costs alone are now running $100,000/bbl/day.
So to replace 100 million bbl/day ONLY requires $10 trillion.
Moreover that has to be done within the next two decades to not have any decline in the rate of growth.

Sure beaming solar power has been proposed. The issue is not electricity but transportation fuels. Are you willing to pay far higher than current petroleum costs for transportation?

We need some 10,000 new systems each producing 10,000 bbl/day over the next two decades. i.e, about 3 per day. Look at Energy Return on Energy Invested (EROEI). Considering the rate at which NASA launches rockets, 3 per day is not practical or cost effective versus other options.

Rather than flippantly dismissing &quot;Peak Oil&quot;, may I encourage you to read through those links and start grappling with the statistics and models. Its the rate of transition that determines the price and the economy. At the present rate of inaction, the USA is spending $1 trillion per year on oil, with some $700 billion going overseas. i.e. the US is rapidly exchanging the company store for a &quot;joy ride.&quot; The EU is not far behind.

It is your future at stake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evan Jones et al. on Peak Oil</p>
<p>The issue is rapid depletion of &#8220;CHEAP LIGHT OIL&#8221;<br />
NOT<br />
Total hydrocarbons.<br />
US conventional oil production peaked in 1970. We are now importing some 65%. We have &#8220;plenty&#8221; of oil shale &#8211; why is no one falling over themselves to get it?</p>
<p>Yes there are &#8220;trillions&#8221; of barrels of &#8220;hydrocarbon resources&#8221; out there &#8211; problem is that you now have to take bitumen (aka &#8220;tar&#8221;) and convert it to gasoline. Extraction and conversion capital costs alone are now running $100,000/bbl/day.<br />
So to replace 100 million bbl/day ONLY requires $10 trillion.<br />
Moreover that has to be done within the next two decades to not have any decline in the rate of growth.</p>
<p>Sure beaming solar power has been proposed. The issue is not electricity but transportation fuels. Are you willing to pay far higher than current petroleum costs for transportation?</p>
<p>We need some 10,000 new systems each producing 10,000 bbl/day over the next two decades. i.e, about 3 per day. Look at Energy Return on Energy Invested (EROEI). Considering the rate at which NASA launches rockets, 3 per day is not practical or cost effective versus other options.</p>
<p>Rather than flippantly dismissing &#8220;Peak Oil&#8221;, may I encourage you to read through those links and start grappling with the statistics and models. Its the rate of transition that determines the price and the economy. At the present rate of inaction, the USA is spending $1 trillion per year on oil, with some $700 billion going overseas. i.e. the US is rapidly exchanging the company store for a &#8220;joy ride.&#8221; The EU is not far behind.</p>
<p>It is your future at stake.</p>
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