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	<title>Comments on: The &#8220;Hippocratic Oath&#8221; for Scientists</title>
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	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: floreign</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-21203</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[floreign]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Amicus Plato, sed magis amicam veritas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amicus Plato, sed magis amicam veritas.</p>
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		<title>By: retired engineer</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-21067</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[retired engineer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[In some cases, the &quot;Hippocritic&quot; oath seems more appropriate.

Then, I don&#039;t use 200,000 kWh per year.  What do I know...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In some cases, the &#8220;Hippocritic&#8221; oath seems more appropriate.</p>
<p>Then, I don&#8217;t use 200,000 kWh per year.  What do I know&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Francois Ouellette</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-21055</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Francois Ouellette]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-21055</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But financial gain, competitiveness, and ambition are what drives most scientists, in various order. Do they &quot;cloud your judgment&quot;? So does ideology, conformism, tooth ache, etc. etc. How do you know that your judgment is clouded? That&#039;s only for others to decide. Many of the great scientists in history had their judgment &quot;clouded&quot;. Yet they made great contributions to our knowledge of the natural world. 

In the end, our societies are not ruled by individual pledges. When dishonesty is punished, it is discouraged. That&#039;s why we have laws and police forces. But we also have free speech, and a hopefully fair justice system. 

That&#039;s all that the pursuit of science needs: free speech, open debate, and penalties for those who are dishonest. Individual pledges mean nothing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But financial gain, competitiveness, and ambition are what drives most scientists, in various order. Do they &#8220;cloud your judgment&#8221;? So does ideology, conformism, tooth ache, etc. etc. How do you know that your judgment is clouded? That&#8217;s only for others to decide. Many of the great scientists in history had their judgment &#8220;clouded&#8221;. Yet they made great contributions to our knowledge of the natural world. </p>
<p>In the end, our societies are not ruled by individual pledges. When dishonesty is punished, it is discouraged. That&#8217;s why we have laws and police forces. But we also have free speech, and a hopefully fair justice system. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s all that the pursuit of science needs: free speech, open debate, and penalties for those who are dishonest. Individual pledges mean nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: statePoet1775</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-21051</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[statePoet1775]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think I like oaths.  Only the ethical would obey them anyway.
Besides, they are often inflicted on the young and gullible by those who wish to rule them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think I like oaths.  Only the ethical would obey them anyway.<br />
Besides, they are often inflicted on the young and gullible by those who wish to rule them.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Hauber</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-21001</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Hauber]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-21001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So what would be in a blogger&#039;s or blog commentator&#039;s oath?

Trivia item:

Apparently the Hippocratic Oath has been largely replaced by the similar &#039;Declaration of Geneva&#039;.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what would be in a blogger&#8217;s or blog commentator&#8217;s oath?</p>
<p>Trivia item:</p>
<p>Apparently the Hippocratic Oath has been largely replaced by the similar &#8216;Declaration of Geneva&#8217;.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath</a></p>
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		<title>By: paminator</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paminator]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The IEEE code of ethics for Electrical and Electronics Engineers has merit, in particular #9 in the list.

 &quot;We,  the members of the IEEE,  in recognition of the importance of our technologies in affecting the quality of life throughout the world, and in accepting a personal obligation to our profession, its members and the communities we serve, do hereby commit ourselves to the highest ethical and professional conduct and agree:

   1. to accept responsibility in making decisions consistent with the safety, health and welfare of the public, and to disclose promptly factors that might endanger the public or the environment;
   2. to avoid real or perceived conflicts of interest whenever possible, and to disclose them to affected parties when they do exist;
   3. to be honest and realistic in stating claims or estimates based on available data;
   4. to reject bribery in all its forms;
   5. to improve the understanding of technology, its appropriate application, and potential consequences;
   6. to maintain and improve our technical competence and to undertake technological tasks for others only if qualified by training or experience, or after full disclosure of pertinent limitations;
   7. to seek, accept, and offer honest criticism of technical work, to acknowledge and correct errors, and to credit properly the contributions of others;
   8. to treat fairly all persons regardless of such factors as race, religion, gender, disability, age, or national origin;
   9. to avoid injuring others, their property, reputation, or employment by false or malicious action;
  10. to assist colleagues and co-workers in their professional development and to support them in following this code of ethics.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The IEEE code of ethics for Electrical and Electronics Engineers has merit, in particular #9 in the list.</p>
<p> &#8220;We,  the members of the IEEE,  in recognition of the importance of our technologies in affecting the quality of life throughout the world, and in accepting a personal obligation to our profession, its members and the communities we serve, do hereby commit ourselves to the highest ethical and professional conduct and agree:</p>
<p>   1. to accept responsibility in making decisions consistent with the safety, health and welfare of the public, and to disclose promptly factors that might endanger the public or the environment;<br />
   2. to avoid real or perceived conflicts of interest whenever possible, and to disclose them to affected parties when they do exist;<br />
   3. to be honest and realistic in stating claims or estimates based on available data;<br />
   4. to reject bribery in all its forms;<br />
   5. to improve the understanding of technology, its appropriate application, and potential consequences;<br />
   6. to maintain and improve our technical competence and to undertake technological tasks for others only if qualified by training or experience, or after full disclosure of pertinent limitations;<br />
   7. to seek, accept, and offer honest criticism of technical work, to acknowledge and correct errors, and to credit properly the contributions of others;<br />
   8. to treat fairly all persons regardless of such factors as race, religion, gender, disability, age, or national origin;<br />
   9. to avoid injuring others, their property, reputation, or employment by false or malicious action;<br />
  10. to assist colleagues and co-workers in their professional development and to support them in following this code of ethics.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Moore</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20957</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Moore]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20957</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;...but never to the detriment of colleagues, supervisors, research subjects or the international community of scholars...&quot; 

WHAT?

If my supervisor or colleague fakes his data, and I know about it, I&#039;m supposed to keep my mouth shut?
If a research topic is a dead end and serves only to keep someone in a job, and I know that, I should be quiet?
If a policy is guided by information I know to be false, I&#039;m expected to be silent?

What a load of horse dung!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;but never to the detriment of colleagues, supervisors, research subjects or the international community of scholars&#8230;&#8221; </p>
<p>WHAT?</p>
<p>If my supervisor or colleague fakes his data, and I know about it, I&#8217;m supposed to keep my mouth shut?<br />
If a research topic is a dead end and serves only to keep someone in a job, and I know that, I should be quiet?<br />
If a policy is guided by information I know to be false, I&#8217;m expected to be silent?</p>
<p>What a load of horse dung!</p>
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		<title>By: Top Posts &#171; WordPress.com</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20948</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Top Posts &#171; WordPress.com]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20948</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...]  The &#8220;Hippocratic Oath&#8221; for Scientists [image] Here is an interesting note from grrlscientist at scienceblogs: &#8220;In response to what appears to be a [...] [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  The &#8220;Hippocratic Oath&#8221; for Scientists [image] Here is an interesting note from grrlscientist at scienceblogs: &#8220;In response to what appears to be a [...] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Philip_B</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20939</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Philip_B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20939</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;promise never to allow financial gain, competitiveness or ambition cloud my judgment in the conduct of ethical research and scholarship. &lt;/i&gt;

So these things are fine if you consider the research &#039;unethical&#039;. Many such as Hansen would view research to disprove AGW as unethical.

At best this is pointless politically correct nonsense. At worst a licence to lie and cheat if you don&#039;t like what the science says.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>promise never to allow financial gain, competitiveness or ambition cloud my judgment in the conduct of ethical research and scholarship. </i></p>
<p>So these things are fine if you consider the research &#8216;unethical&#8217;. Many such as Hansen would view research to disprove AGW as unethical.</p>
<p>At best this is pointless politically correct nonsense. At worst a licence to lie and cheat if you don&#8217;t like what the science says.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill P</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20938</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill P]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20938</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ethics training - and oaths - have a way of turning up in institutions which have gone awry and want to put on a show of reform.  When her company went bankrupt as a result of corporate fraud and massive debt, my wife had to take &quot;ethics training&quot; along with virtually all employees of MCI, formerly World Com, now Verizon. (See &quot;Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room&quot; for an analogous business model).  The bosses who had commited the indiscretions and malfeasances had long since flown the coup or been arrested, but employees were stuck with this training in ethical behavior.

The collaborative decision-makers in the public high school where I taught decided we needed to inoculate students with ethics classes, I suppose because we had a preponderance of lower-class students.  This was done, at the expense of time spent covering other things more meritorious.  I objected then, and I still feel it was a misdirected waste of time.

I realize that ethics and accountability are at the root of your and Steve&#039;s websites, and the more you can keep such issues in the news the better.  I was grateful for those efforts when I heard NPR&#039;s bit last week on underreporting of misconduct in the NIH:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91658116

Do you really want public (or private) institutions demanding that their employees take oaths?  I think I so much as I want them to set the right course to begin with: that they make their goals and objectives - their curricula - readily visible to all;  that they ask the right questions.

Those questions, and of course the pursuit of answers, say a lot about the questioners - questions like: to what extent can those surface stations really be trusted?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ethics training &#8211; and oaths &#8211; have a way of turning up in institutions which have gone awry and want to put on a show of reform.  When her company went bankrupt as a result of corporate fraud and massive debt, my wife had to take &#8220;ethics training&#8221; along with virtually all employees of MCI, formerly World Com, now Verizon. (See &#8220;Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room&#8221; for an analogous business model).  The bosses who had commited the indiscretions and malfeasances had long since flown the coup or been arrested, but employees were stuck with this training in ethical behavior.</p>
<p>The collaborative decision-makers in the public high school where I taught decided we needed to inoculate students with ethics classes, I suppose because we had a preponderance of lower-class students.  This was done, at the expense of time spent covering other things more meritorious.  I objected then, and I still feel it was a misdirected waste of time.</p>
<p>I realize that ethics and accountability are at the root of your and Steve&#8217;s websites, and the more you can keep such issues in the news the better.  I was grateful for those efforts when I heard NPR&#8217;s bit last week on underreporting of misconduct in the NIH:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91658116" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91658116</a></p>
<p>Do you really want public (or private) institutions demanding that their employees take oaths?  I think I so much as I want them to set the right course to begin with: that they make their goals and objectives &#8211; their curricula &#8211; readily visible to all;  that they ask the right questions.</p>
<p>Those questions, and of course the pursuit of answers, say a lot about the questioners &#8211; questions like: to what extent can those surface stations really be trusted?</p>
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		<title>By: Leon Brozyna</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20932</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leon Brozyna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20932</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This &quot;Oath&quot; seems to enshrine the very idea that&#039;s gotten the scientific community into the mess it&#039;s in with AGW - group think. Any such oath should, as its basic premise, start with skepticism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This &#8220;Oath&#8221; seems to enshrine the very idea that&#8217;s gotten the scientific community into the mess it&#8217;s in with AGW &#8211; group think. Any such oath should, as its basic premise, start with skepticism.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Andrews</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20927</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Andrews]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20927</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A little anecdote. 

My eldest son has just finished the first year of his MChem degree. One of his favourite tutors has told him that if he goes into research to always follow the consensus as that way he will get the research money. If he has research ideas that are outside the consensus the advice is basically to &quot;forget it, the money will not be forthcoming&quot;.

In its way this is exactly the same as the second part of  the &quot;Oath&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A little anecdote. </p>
<p>My eldest son has just finished the first year of his MChem degree. One of his favourite tutors has told him that if he goes into research to always follow the consensus as that way he will get the research money. If he has research ideas that are outside the consensus the advice is basically to &#8220;forget it, the money will not be forthcoming&#8221;.</p>
<p>In its way this is exactly the same as the second part of  the &#8220;Oath&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Jones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20923</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evan Jones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The phrase that immediately struck me is the same phrase that seems to have immediately struck everybody else!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The phrase that immediately struck me is the same phrase that seems to have immediately struck everybody else!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Empty</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20922</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Empty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Taken at face value, it&#039;s a middling try at best with too much of a self-congratulatory &quot;everyone wins!&quot; feel to convey the heavy burdens that those who pursue truth above all else must sometimes bear.  

Throw in the probable pc world view of the folks who created this (i.e. university intelligensia), and I score it about equal to the &quot;paintballers oath&quot; for oathy goodness.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taken at face value, it&#8217;s a middling try at best with too much of a self-congratulatory &#8220;everyone wins!&#8221; feel to convey the heavy burdens that those who pursue truth above all else must sometimes bear.  </p>
<p>Throw in the probable pc world view of the folks who created this (i.e. university intelligensia), and I score it about equal to the &#8220;paintballers oath&#8221; for oathy goodness.</p>
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		<title>By: John Galt</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/24/the-hippocratic-oath-for-scientists/#comment-20921</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Galt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/?p=1484#comment-20921</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ethics are extremely important, but like many others I&#039;m concerned about the &lt;i&gt;&quot;but never to the detriment of colleagues, supervisors, research subjects or the international community of scholars&quot;&lt;/i&gt; clause. This could easily be used to stifle debate and dissent. To echo another poster, this will make GroupThink even worse.

A better scientific oath might be to tell the truth no matter what the consequences.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ethics are extremely important, but like many others I&#8217;m concerned about the <i>&#8220;but never to the detriment of colleagues, supervisors, research subjects or the international community of scholars&#8221;</i> clause. This could easily be used to stifle debate and dissent. To echo another poster, this will make GroupThink even worse.</p>
<p>A better scientific oath might be to tell the truth no matter what the consequences.</p>
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