Comments on: How not to measure temperature, part 45 http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/ Commentary on puzzling things in life, nature, science, weather, climate change, technology, and recent news by Anthony Watts Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:08:46 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Brian http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-4978 Brian Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:04:15 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-4978 I especially like the little pile of rocks at the base of the pole helping to keep the temperature sensor from falling against the building or the transfromer ! I especially like the little pile of rocks at the base of the pole helping to keep the temperature sensor from falling against the building or the transfromer !

]]> By: How not to measure temperature, part 49. Alaska’s COOP Stations « Watts Up With That? http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-4644 How not to measure temperature, part 49. Alaska’s COOP Stations « Watts Up With That? Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:32:49 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-4644 [...] Earlier I wrote up an essay on the NOAA climate station at Cordova, AK. [...] [...] Earlier I wrote up an essay on the NOAA climate station at Cordova, AK. [...]

]]> By: papertiger http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3285 papertiger Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:10:57 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3285 <i>I’ve tried a few, some have responded</i> That's the operative part. Good. Something for me to do. I’ve tried a few, some have responded

That’s the operative part.
Good. Something for me to do.

]]> By: papertiger http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3259 papertiger Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:12:04 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3259 Anthony Have you ever just googled the town or local of an unaudited USHCN thermometer, then sent an email directly to the local folks to solicit photos of the site from them? <strong>Anthony:</strong> I've tried a few, some have responded, the majority have been ignored. Anthony

Have you ever just googled the town or local of an unaudited USHCN thermometer, then sent an email directly to the local folks to solicit photos of the site from them?

Anthony: I’ve tried a few, some have responded, the majority have been ignored.

]]> By: Evan Jones http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3221 Evan Jones Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:24:30 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3221 I'm also looking forward to the Barrow site. I've been inundated about what a wonderful, pristine site it is. So I'm very keen to get the real skinny on it. I’m also looking forward to the Barrow site. I’ve been inundated about what a wonderful, pristine site it is. So I’m very keen to get the real skinny on it.

]]> By: Evan Jones http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3113 Evan Jones Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:52:23 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3113 >When you think of Alaska, you think of cold, snowy, pristine remote wilderness, right? Lights=0! >When you think of Alaska, you think of cold, snowy, pristine remote wilderness, right?

Lights=0!

]]> By: Julian Flood http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3111 Julian Flood Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:05:10 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3111 Anthony, I'm looking forward to the Barrow temperature graph -- when you look at the data, will you also get a chance to download the sunshine figures? I'm trying to get a handle on fog/low level cloud cover. Unalaska would also be helpful. There's a perceptive quote on CA -- 'it's getting warmer because it's getting sunnier.' I'm wondering if that's true for Barrow. JF Anthony,

I’m looking forward to the Barrow temperature graph — when you look at the data, will you also get a chance to download the sunshine figures? I’m trying to get a handle on fog/low level cloud cover. Unalaska would also be helpful.
There’s a perceptive quote on CA — ‘it’s getting warmer because it’s getting sunnier.’ I’m wondering if that’s true for Barrow.

JF

]]> By: JamesG http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3100 JamesG Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:28:07 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3100 I guess this is the answer to "wheres Waldo?". I used to joke that the Russians had a weather machine back in the cold war days. Funny that the Russians are the ones most skeptical of global warming. What are they trying to hide? ;) I guess this is the answer to “wheres Waldo?”. I used to joke that the Russians had a weather machine back in the cold war days. Funny that the Russians are the ones most skeptical of global warming. What are they trying to hide? ;)

]]> By: Anthony http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3074 Anthony Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:10:29 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3074 John thanks for that, but please also see this: http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/nh-sea-ice-loss-its-the-wind-says-nasa/ and this http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/alaska-warming-from-arctic-tundra-shrub-invasion-and-soot-deposition/ John thanks for that, but please also see this:

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/nh-sea-ice-loss-its-the-wind-says-nasa/

and this

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/alaska-warming-from-arctic-tundra-shrub-invasion-and-soot-deposition/

]]> By: John D. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3064 John D. Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:21:28 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3064 Yes the thermometer's broken...but.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071212/ap_on_sc/arctic_melt;_ylt=Al3NeIieoAilh3sje5L87SgiANEA Yes the thermometer’s broken…but….

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071212/ap_on_sc/arctic_melt;_ylt=Al3NeIieoAilh3sje5L87SgiANEA

]]> By: Jeff http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3060 Jeff Thu, 13 Dec 2007 01:29:05 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3060 <blockquote>I spent 25 years in television.</blockquote> Wow, musta been pretty cramped in there. ;)

I spent 25 years in television.

Wow, musta been pretty cramped in there. ;)

]]> By: An Inquirer http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3057 An Inquirer Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:58:47 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3057 You probably are aware that John Vliet http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.org/features/1007_surfacetemps.htm took note of your work on auditing surface stations, made a data set out of those that you classified as high-quality rural stations, and concluded that there is no significant difference in the trend of these versus the official NASA GISTEMP temperatures. In other words, Hansen's adjustment methodology holds up quite well by using this reasonable approach. Of course, Mr. Vliet did this well before you were finished on you audit. However, I have not found any reply to his study. Can you direct me some place? <strong>REPLY:</strong> Today is the first I've seen this article, I had no knowledge of it. There is no reply to his study, because the survey is not completed yet. VanVliet did his study with only 17 CRN1 stations in the dataset, hardly a broad sample. Unfortunately the "journalist", Zeke Hausfather, there at Yale, didn't bother to ask me any questions, not a single one, and proceded to take potshots at other journalists for the way they have reported the project so far as if he had some sort of handle on proper reporting. So much for balanced journalism - "let's not bother to ask the central figure of the article any questions". But this is the kind of unprofessional thing that happens in MSM regularly, and I can state that with firsthand knowledge because I spent 25 years in television. You probably are aware that John Vliet http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.org/features/1007_surfacetemps.htm
took note of your work on auditing surface stations, made a data set out of those that you classified as high-quality rural stations, and concluded that there is no significant difference in the trend of these versus the official NASA GISTEMP temperatures. In other words, Hansen’s adjustment methodology holds up quite well by using this reasonable approach. Of course, Mr. Vliet did this well before you were finished on you audit. However, I have not found any reply to his study. Can you direct me some place?

REPLY: Today is the first I’ve seen this article, I had no knowledge of it. There is no reply to his study, because the survey is not completed yet. VanVliet did his study with only 17 CRN1 stations in the dataset, hardly a broad sample. Unfortunately the “journalist”, Zeke Hausfather, there at Yale, didn’t bother to ask me any questions, not a single one, and proceded to take potshots at other journalists for the way they have reported the project so far as if he had some sort of handle on proper reporting.

So much for balanced journalism – “let’s not bother to ask the central figure of the article any questions”. But this is the kind of unprofessional thing that happens in MSM regularly, and I can state that with firsthand knowledge because I spent 25 years in television.

]]> By: henry http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3048 henry Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:15:33 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3048 Also, looking at that picture, one wonders how close the sensor is to that hill in the background. That, along with the buildings, may prevent air from circulating (wouldn't it?) Also, looking at that picture, one wonders how close the sensor is to that hill in the background. That, along with the buildings, may prevent air from circulating (wouldn’t it?)

]]> By: SteveSadlov http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3035 SteveSadlov Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:10:35 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3035 An interesting thing about Cordova and other coastal SE Alaskan locations is that they are technically in a Marine West Coast climate zone. Admitedly, we are talking about the extreme northern most sliver of Marine West Coast, sometimes only found literally at the beaches. Nonetheless, one thing you will find about these SE Alaskan places is that the temperature and rainfall do not vary as widely in a seasonal sense as in other places in Alaska. The typical day is overcast and rainy, with no more than 15 deg F diurnal variation. Sometimes the diurnal variation is far, far less than that, almost zero. An interesting thing about Cordova and other coastal SE Alaskan locations is that they are technically in a Marine West Coast climate zone. Admitedly, we are talking about the extreme northern most sliver of Marine West Coast, sometimes only found literally at the beaches. Nonetheless, one thing you will find about these SE Alaskan places is that the temperature and rainfall do not vary as widely in a seasonal sense as in other places in Alaska. The typical day is overcast and rainy, with no more than 15 deg F diurnal variation. Sometimes the diurnal variation is far, far less than that, almost zero.

]]> By: henry http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3034 henry Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:22:02 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3034 I'm just going off the map on surfacestations, which doesn't have AK on it. Or Hawaii, for that matter. I know full well that AK is part of the US, was stationed in Galena AK in the early 90's (northernmost fighter base in the US, on the banks of the Yukon river, pitstop for the Iditarod). It was there I lived through the coldest week in my life (35 below for a week, and that was WITHOUT any wind). Where was global warming then? I really don't worry much about the other blogs, either, at least here I get honest answers. I guess what I'm getting at about the US GISS stations is, how many have been hit so far. It seems you have a list that breaks down stations into the reporting categories (the COOP "a" stations for example). Didn't see this column in your surfacestations lists. Was wondering if there was an available list of US GISS stations. Cant seem to find one anywhere. Over at CA, Steve & Co. were trying to sort out the Global GISS list. Just point me in the right direction, I'll go from there. I’m just going off the map on surfacestations, which doesn’t have AK on it. Or Hawaii, for that matter.

I know full well that AK is part of the US, was stationed in Galena AK in the early 90’s (northernmost fighter base in the US, on the banks of the Yukon river, pitstop for the Iditarod). It was there I lived through the coldest week in my life (35 below for a week, and that was WITHOUT any wind). Where was global warming then?

I really don’t worry much about the other blogs, either, at least here I get honest answers.

I guess what I’m getting at about the US GISS stations is, how many have been hit so far. It seems you have a list that breaks down stations into the reporting categories (the COOP “a” stations for example). Didn’t see this column in your surfacestations lists. Was wondering if there was an available list of US GISS stations. Cant seem to find one anywhere. Over at CA, Steve & Co. were trying to sort out the Global GISS list.

Just point me in the right direction, I’ll go from there.

]]> By: wattsupwiththat http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3032 wattsupwiththat Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:41:02 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3032 Henry wrote: “They found nothing in the U.S pictures, so they’re moving on to Alaska.” Henry thanks for the tip on these stations. Ummm... I hate to break this to you but... Alaska IS the United States. Our 49th state. In your defense though, the CONUS mentality does pervade even NOAA/NCDC who setup USHCN to have only stations within CONUS, and no official USHCN stations in Alaska or Hawaii. Yes GISS uses the USHCN stations, includign Alaska/Hawaii plus many others worldwide. Once we get all the USHCN stations complete, I'll concentrate on the others. In the meantime, I'm not going to worry about those other blogging critics opinions. The vast majority of them do nothing but complain for the sake of it and contribute nothing at all to the debate or to science. Henry wrote: “They found nothing in the U.S pictures, so they’re moving on to Alaska.”

Henry thanks for the tip on these stations. Ummm… I hate to break this to you but… Alaska IS the United States. Our 49th state. In your defense though, the CONUS mentality does pervade even NOAA/NCDC who setup USHCN to have only stations within CONUS, and no official USHCN stations in Alaska or Hawaii.

Yes GISS uses the USHCN stations, includign Alaska/Hawaii plus many others worldwide. Once we get all the USHCN stations complete, I’ll concentrate on the others.

In the meantime, I’m not going to worry about those other blogging critics opinions. The vast majority of them do nothing but complain for the sake of it and contribute nothing at all to the debate or to science.

]]> By: henry http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3031 henry Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:56:04 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3031 Wow. I had no idea that those Alaska pictures would become the new series. We do run the risk of hearing "They found nothing in the U.S pictures, so they're moving on to Alaska." You might have to create a new map showing the AK stations and their ratings (coverage, etc). Otherwise, the "cherry-picking" claim surfaces again. If the chart shows overabundance of poor sites, we're beating that claim, too. Now for my question of the day: Your listing of stations is for the USHCN stations. Does GISS use the same stations? Once again, curious if the data that GISS is using is skewed the same way. Wow. I had no idea that those Alaska pictures would become the new series.

We do run the risk of hearing “They found nothing in the U.S pictures, so they’re moving on to Alaska.”

You might have to create a new map showing the AK stations and their ratings (coverage, etc). Otherwise, the “cherry-picking” claim surfaces again. If the chart shows overabundance of poor sites, we’re beating that claim, too.

Now for my question of the day:

Your listing of stations is for the USHCN stations. Does GISS use the same stations? Once again, curious if the data that GISS is using is skewed the same way.

]]> By: Mange http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3026 Mange Tue, 11 Dec 2007 06:50:41 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3026 This is hilarious (or would have been hilarious if this, together with the fantasy of future predicting models, wasn't the basis for Bali and regulation in the economy). The anomaly method "the bias method", which McIntyre wrote about here... http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2015 ...I'm sure standards of measurement we can follow here are quite important, regarding the importance of US stations James Hansen mention in the GISS methodology document. OMG - period. This is hilarious (or would have been hilarious if this, together with the fantasy of future predicting models, wasn’t the basis for Bali and regulation in the economy).

The anomaly method “the bias method”, which McIntyre wrote about here…
http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2015
…I’m sure standards of measurement we can follow here are quite important, regarding the importance of US stations James Hansen mention in the GISS methodology document.

OMG – period.

]]> By: Russ http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3025 Russ Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:40:52 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3025 Even with the current UHI it look like Alaska was much warmer in the 1930s. You can see the jump in 1976/77 when the PDO shifted warm. I am betting that it is now shifting back to cool. It is going to get colder in this part of Alaska real soon now. Even with the current UHI it look like Alaska was much warmer in the 1930s. You can see the jump in 1976/77 when the PDO shifted warm. I am betting that it is now shifting back to cool. It is going to get colder in this part of Alaska real soon now.

]]> By: Bill in Vigo http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3021 Bill in Vigo Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:54:56 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-45/#comment-3021 I understand that the mmts is designed to be read remotely, what I don't understand is why they would put in equipment that has such limited range. For me it would seem that to install a single or 2 strand fiber cable would give nearly unlimited distance to the remote display and reset device. This should help to reduce the microsite bias and possibly some of the uhi effect. Just food for thought. Bill I understand that the mmts is designed to be read remotely, what I don’t understand is why they would put in equipment that has such limited range. For me it would seem that to install a single or 2 strand fiber cable would give nearly unlimited distance to the remote display and reset device. This should help to reduce the microsite bias and possibly some of the uhi effect. Just food for thought.

Bill

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