Comments on: How not to measure temperature, part 38 http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/ Commentary on puzzling things in life, nature, science, weather, climate change, technology, and recent news by Anthony Watts Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:06:02 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Conrad vonBlankenburg http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2910 Conrad vonBlankenburg Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:27:02 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2910 Over the past several years that "Global Warming" has been in the news I have asked several learned people, with PHD"s, and other concerned people this question. "How is the idea that the earth is warming up quantified? " Mostly I get the deer in the head lights, Blank, Stare. I then ask is the sensor located at sea level? 1 foot above sea level? 1 foot below sea level? Or just how high in the air or below the ocean is the temp taken. Also is it taken every day, week, month, hour or all the time every second? I then finish off the conversation with the questions " Is it taken in a grid every 10 feet, every mile, every 10 miles or every 100 miles? Or just where are the sensors placed? In my business, building construction, we measure everything with a scale or tape measure. Otherwise we sould have absolutely no idea what to build, how much material to order, how many workers we need and how much money to charge for our work. I expect nothing less of the people who try to tell us about the climate and weather and all the rest of the earth we live on. Up to this point, from what I have seen, the job of measuring global warming or cooling falls far short of anything I would rely on. Sounds like mostly B.S. to me. Over the past several years that “Global Warming” has been in the news I have asked several learned people, with PHD”s, and other concerned people this question. “How is the idea that the earth is warming up quantified? ” Mostly I get the deer in the head lights, Blank, Stare. I then ask is the sensor located at sea level? 1 foot above sea level? 1 foot below sea level? Or just how high in the air or below the ocean is the temp taken. Also is it taken every day, week, month, hour or all the time every second? I then finish off the conversation with the questions ” Is it taken in a grid every 10 feet, every mile, every 10 miles or every 100 miles? Or just where are the sensors placed? In my business, building construction, we measure everything with a scale or tape measure. Otherwise we sould have absolutely no idea what to build, how much material to order, how many workers we need and how much money to charge for our work.
I expect nothing less of the people who try to tell us about the climate and weather and all the rest of the earth we live on. Up to this point, from what I have seen, the job of measuring global warming or cooling falls far short of anything I would rely on. Sounds like mostly B.S. to me.

]]> By: Evan Jones http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2737 Evan Jones Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:39:42 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2737 "Grammar though, is another story." And usage. And punctuation. (I'm spoiled. On CSW I can edit my posts.) “Grammar though, is another story.”

And usage. And punctuation.

(I’m spoiled. On CSW I can edit my posts.)

]]> By: James Thomasq http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2724 James Thomasq Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:41:26 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2724 Excellent observation as I have observed the same thing. Excellent observation as I have observed the same thing.

]]> By: wattsupwiththat http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2722 wattsupwiththat Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:27:11 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2722 Evan, there is a simple solution to spell checking your submission before submitting it. If you don't already have it, install the free Google Toolbar. It has an "ABC Check" button, which will show you in red, what spelling errors are in the form before you click submit. Then click on them for suggestions, choose one, and it will correct them for you. Once you get in the habit of using it, all the spelling issues are a thing of the past. Grammar though, is another story. Evan, there is a simple solution to spell checking your submission before submitting it. If you don’t already have it, install the free Google Toolbar.

It has an “ABC Check” button, which will show you in red, what spelling errors are in the form before you click submit. Then click on them for suggestions, choose one, and it will correct them for you.

Once you get in the habit of using it, all the spelling issues are a thing of the past. Grammar though, is another story.

]]> By: ernie holden http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2717 ernie holden Thu, 29 Nov 2007 02:32:17 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2717 Sirs: RE: Cloverdale. California temperature measurements. Cloverdale is located a the North end of a long valley in Sonoma County. Heat tends to collect in Cloverdale, especially during the summer. Cloverdale is frequently much hotter than near by communities/areas. A similarly located area is Redding, California. Redding is located at the North end of the Sacramento Valley and collects heat from the South. Both locations are naturally very hot during the summer. NOTE: Just a few miles North of Redding is Mt. Shasta, which has five (5) growing glaciers! I have casually observed and passed through Cloverdale since the late 1940's! Sirs:

RE: Cloverdale. California temperature measurements. Cloverdale is located a the North end of a long valley in Sonoma County. Heat tends to collect in Cloverdale, especially during the summer. Cloverdale is frequently much hotter than near by communities/areas. A similarly located area is Redding, California.
Redding is located at the North end of the Sacramento Valley and collects heat from the South. Both locations are naturally very hot during the summer. NOTE: Just a few miles North of Redding is Mt. Shasta, which has five (5) growing glaciers!

I have casually observed and passed through Cloverdale since the late 1940’s!

]]> By: Evan Jones http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2716 Evan Jones Thu, 29 Nov 2007 02:29:06 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2716 P.S., A thousand curses upon the lack of spellcheck! P.S., A thousand curses upon the lack of spellcheck!

]]> By: Evan Jones http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2715 Evan Jones Thu, 29 Nov 2007 02:28:19 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2715 "How can the rain gauge be in the shade? How can a temperature gauge be anywhere near a building?" I think I can answer that. There's an old legend ... (as the audience discretely edges towards the exits). Like all old legends it's better if it isn't true. I certainly don't vouch for it's authenticity, which would undoubtedly detract. Author John Dos Pasos (or Arthur Miller or Dorothy Parker or Gore Vidal or Tennessee Williams or Truman Capote or whatever) once asked beastly John Birch, "Why do you right-wing radicals see a communist behind every bush?" Beastly B. is said to have replied, "Why do you liberals always plant bushes in front of communists?" (Sometimes the mountain comes to Mohhammed.) “How can the rain gauge be in the shade? How can a temperature gauge be anywhere near a building?”

I think I can answer that.

There’s an old legend … (as the audience discretely edges towards the exits).

Like all old legends it’s better if it isn’t true. I certainly don’t vouch for it’s authenticity, which would undoubtedly detract.

Author John Dos Pasos (or Arthur Miller or Dorothy Parker or Gore Vidal or Tennessee Williams or Truman Capote or whatever) once asked beastly John Birch, “Why do you right-wing radicals see a communist behind every bush?” Beastly B. is said to have replied, “Why do you liberals always plant bushes in front of communists?”

(Sometimes the mountain comes to Mohhammed.)

]]> By: Evan Jones http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2713 Evan Jones Thu, 29 Nov 2007 02:15:25 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2713 RTS It factors in when they publish peer-reviewed papers saying that the UHI is falling. (See, Chicken-Little, Goosey-Loosey, Ducky-Lucky, Piggy-Wiggy, Henny Penny, et al., 2001.) Little, Loosey, Lucky, Wiggy, Penny have arrived at a consensus. That sort of study requires a lot of time, trouble, and treasure. Therefore they see no need to waste their valuable resources by releasing their data or methods to that blowhard Big Bad Wolf or that interfering upstart, Baba Yaga. They just get in the way of the plot (and they are indirectly funded by Big Publishing.) Besides, a recent paper (Boyhu, Kried, Volf, et multa al. 2006) has confirmed the study. And why are you wasting our time with this-here airport? That airport is undoubtedly a rural sight, so what's yer problem? We adjust that one UP. ( Just add TOBS to taste.) And you measure temp in F? Really! How gauche! (Obviously a right wing-nut; to be ignored.) RTS

It factors in when they publish peer-reviewed papers saying that the UHI is falling. (See, Chicken-Little, Goosey-Loosey, Ducky-Lucky, Piggy-Wiggy, Henny Penny, et al., 2001.)

Little, Loosey, Lucky, Wiggy, Penny have arrived at a consensus. That sort of study requires a lot of time, trouble, and treasure. Therefore they see no need to waste their valuable resources by releasing their data or methods to that blowhard Big Bad Wolf or that interfering upstart, Baba Yaga. They just get in the way of the plot (and they are indirectly funded by Big Publishing.) Besides, a recent paper (Boyhu, Kried, Volf, et multa al. 2006) has confirmed the study.

And why are you wasting our time with this-here airport? That airport is undoubtedly a rural sight, so what’s yer problem? We adjust that one UP. ( Just add TOBS to taste.)

And you measure temp in F? Really! How gauche! (Obviously a right wing-nut; to be ignored.)

]]> By: Andrew MacIsaac http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2708 Andrew MacIsaac Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:47:35 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2708 Are you trying to tell me that Al Gore is using skewed data? I find that hard to believe. Are you trying to tell me that Al Gore is using skewed data? I find that hard to believe.

]]> By: Danny L. Newton http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2707 Danny L. Newton Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:16:50 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2707 I don't see how this is possible. I used to work for the FAA and we interacted well with the weather bureau most of the time. We often cooperated with co-location of weather stations. How can the rain gauge be in the shade? How can a temperature gauge be anywhere near a building? The weather bureau was our consultant for automated weather observation stations. Their criteria was very strict but the problem usually came with the budgets. I worked on an experimental wind shear detection program and helped to site and install a system of 27 systems to detect dangerous wind shears for aircraft on final approach. When there was not enough money to put in the ideal station, compromises were often tolerated to stay within budget. Even though the stations were not ideal, they were salvaged with software modifications to take into consideration the lack of discipline in siting. The weather bureau has had a lot of problems with funding and they have had to move some stations. Maybe this is the best they could do with what they had? It is my experience that airport detectors seem to be colder than surrounding measurements. The way I remember it , the airport temperature detectors noticed the icing conditions at the airport in Washington even though private temperature reports were showing no change. It seems like that was Dec 1980 when a jet iced up and went into the river. I remember a man jumping into the water to save a flight attendant. Bad temperature detection can kill you as well as drain your wallet. I don’t see how this is possible. I used to work for the FAA and we interacted well with the weather bureau most of the time. We often cooperated with co-location of weather stations. How can the rain gauge be in the shade? How can a temperature gauge be anywhere near a building?
The weather bureau was our consultant for automated weather observation stations. Their criteria was very strict but the problem usually came with the budgets. I worked on an experimental wind shear detection program and helped to site and install a system of 27 systems to detect dangerous wind shears for aircraft on final approach. When there was not enough money to put in the ideal station, compromises were often tolerated to stay within budget. Even though the stations were not ideal, they were salvaged with software modifications to take into consideration the lack of discipline in siting. The weather bureau has had a lot of problems with funding and they have had to move some stations. Maybe this is the best they could do with what they had?
It is my experience that airport detectors seem to be colder than surrounding measurements. The way I remember it , the airport temperature detectors noticed the icing conditions at the airport in Washington even though private temperature reports were showing no change. It seems like that was Dec 1980 when a jet iced up and went into the river. I remember a man jumping into the water to save a flight attendant. Bad temperature detection can kill you as well as drain your wallet.

]]> By: Elisheva http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2705 Elisheva Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:05:30 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2705 Oh yes. Towards which direction is that building above facing? This should be standardized in taking measures. Oh yes.
Towards which direction is that building above facing?
This should be standardized in taking measures.

]]> By: Elisheva http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2704 Elisheva Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:03:56 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2704 There are 3 mandatory scriptural, biblical laws of measurement, which prohibit the use of false measures, and require the use of only accurate ones. To make errors in measurement is equal to theft. Thanks for pointing out about the location of measuring devices. Of course, nearer to cities and more pavement will "increase" temperature, but as a local effect, which should not be generalized. Further, such an increase is due to the activity of, for example, building, not gas use. Elisheva in Ohio There are 3 mandatory scriptural, biblical laws of measurement, which prohibit the use of false measures, and require the use of only accurate ones.
To make errors in measurement is equal to theft.
Thanks for pointing out about the location of measuring devices.

Of course, nearer to cities and more pavement will “increase” temperature, but as a local effect, which should not be generalized. Further, such an increase is due to the activity of, for example, building, not gas use.
Elisheva in Ohio

]]> By: Douglas Schulek-Miller http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2703 Douglas Schulek-Miller Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:32:12 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2703 At this level of scientific sophistication, I'm excitedly awaiting the return of the "Phlogiston" theory. Don't laugh. they think Galileo was prosecuted for heresy, too. At this level of scientific sophistication, I’m excitedly awaiting the return of the “Phlogiston” theory.

Don’t laugh. they think Galileo was prosecuted for heresy, too.

]]> By: Raymond Takashi Swenson http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2699 Raymond Takashi Swenson Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:01:43 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2699 We have a remote sensor outdoor thermometer at my home, which is four miles west of the local airport, surrounded by farms. Our morning low temperature is consistently 5 degrees F cooler than the one reported by the airport on the TV news and the internet services. The land around the airport has been getting filled in with houses over the 7 years we have lived here, enough so that our church built another meetinghouse in that neighborhood to accommodate the growth. So how does that change in land use factor into the temperature reports? We have a remote sensor outdoor thermometer at my home, which is four miles west of the local airport, surrounded by farms. Our morning low temperature is consistently 5 degrees F cooler than the one reported by the airport on the TV news and the internet services. The land around the airport has been getting filled in with houses over the 7 years we have lived here, enough so that our church built another meetinghouse in that neighborhood to accommodate the growth. So how does that change in land use factor into the temperature reports?

]]> By: Richard http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2698 Richard Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:08:59 +0000 http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-38/#comment-2698 Actually, I am more concerned with "wind chill factor" and where does it disappear to during warmer months. Actually, I am more concerned with “wind chill factor” and where does it disappear to during warmer months.

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