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	<title>Comments on: How not to measure temperature, part 31</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/</link>
	<description>The world&#039;s most viewed site on global warming and climate change</description>
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		<title>By: Where Thermometers Go To Die - How not to measure temperature, part 80 &#171; Watts Up With That?</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-68625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Where Thermometers Go To Die - How not to measure temperature, part 80 &#171; Watts Up With That?]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 14:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-68625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I started looking further, I never expected to find USHCN climate monitoring stations placed at sewage treatment plants, next to burn barrels, or in parking lots of University Atmospheric Science Departments, or next to [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I started looking further, I never expected to find USHCN climate monitoring stations placed at sewage treatment plants, next to burn barrels, or in parking lots of University Atmospheric Science Departments, or next to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Jones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1687</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evan Jones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 20:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Gimme that Old Time Consensus?
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gimme that Old Time Consensus?</p>
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		<title>By: 13times</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1686</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[13times]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &#039;Old&#039; Consensus?
INVESTOR&#039;S BUSINESS DAILY
9/21/2007

&lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/2f4k8d&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://tinyurl.com/2f4k8d&lt;/a&gt;


The ice under Hansen&#039;s feet is getting very thin.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8216;Old&#8217; Consensus?<br />
INVESTOR&#8217;S BUSINESS DAILY<br />
9/21/2007</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/2f4k8d" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2f4k8d</a></p>
<p>The ice under Hansen&#8217;s feet is getting very thin.</p>
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		<title>By: Stan Needham</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1685</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stan Needham]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 14:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1685</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wanted to read more about the USHCN, and when I Googled USHCN I discovered a rather humorous irony with regard to this post.  The USHCN home page appeared as the first entry in the Google search, accompanied by this one-line description:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The United States Historical Climatology Network (USHCN) is a &lt;b&gt;high quality, moderate-sized data set of daily and monthly records&lt;/b&gt; of basic meteorological ... (emphasis added)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wanted to read more about the USHCN, and when I Googled USHCN I discovered a rather humorous irony with regard to this post.  The USHCN home page appeared as the first entry in the Google search, accompanied by this one-line description:</p>
<blockquote><p>The United States Historical Climatology Network (USHCN) is a <b>high quality, moderate-sized data set of daily and monthly records</b> of basic meteorological &#8230; (emphasis added)</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Ben Paterson</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1684</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Paterson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anthony,
In our email exchange last week I noted that I will be visting Cape Canaveral in 3 weeks, and planned to do the site assessment for Titusville, FL - looks like Don&#039;s beat me to it.  Very nice job on his part.  He did not note it in his assessment, but this is a waste water treatment plant.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony,<br />
In our email exchange last week I noted that I will be visting Cape Canaveral in 3 weeks, and planned to do the site assessment for Titusville, FL &#8211; looks like Don&#8217;s beat me to it.  Very nice job on his part.  He did not note it in his assessment, but this is a waste water treatment plant.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Jones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1683</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evan Jones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 14:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1683</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[SIR! Interesting artilce, SIR!

The gold speck seems to be that uncertainty over time is not, Not, NOT necessarily a constant.
So not only is the data that much fuzzier, but it&#039;s also a moving target (even if moving into less fuzz). The problem being when we unconsciously assume the end-fuzz is as fuzzy and the at-start-fuzz.

(And how acurate can one get if one oversamples a 0.2C MoE? What&#039;s the curve on that?)

And I thought liberal arts would suffice. That and a modicum of wargame-level stats. Obviously it won&#039;t do. I shall have to work on that.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SIR! Interesting artilce, SIR!</p>
<p>The gold speck seems to be that uncertainty over time is not, Not, NOT necessarily a constant.<br />
So not only is the data that much fuzzier, but it&#8217;s also a moving target (even if moving into less fuzz). The problem being when we unconsciously assume the end-fuzz is as fuzzy and the at-start-fuzz.</p>
<p>(And how acurate can one get if one oversamples a 0.2C MoE? What&#8217;s the curve on that?)</p>
<p>And I thought liberal arts would suffice. That and a modicum of wargame-level stats. Obviously it won&#8217;t do. I shall have to work on that.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Jones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1682</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evan Jones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 03:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;That&#039;s the old Groucho Marx song!&quot;

Bingo. (Sorry about the typo.)
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That&#8217;s the old Groucho Marx song!&#8221;</p>
<p>Bingo. (Sorry about the typo.)</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bloom</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1681</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Bloom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 01:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1681</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anthony, if there&#039;s an blatant bias from microsite effects at this USHCN site, one would think that would be apparent in even a short-term trend comparison (probably of daily data) with the CRN station.  As you note, over two years of data are available for the latter.  I agree that subtle effects would require more years of CRN data, but I thought the point of this post was to single out a station where that wouldn&#039;t be the case.

John Hekman, that Freep post was very confused.  If you look at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/cr/v33/n2/p159-169/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;JPL press release&lt;/a&gt;, things should become more clear.  Unsurprisingly, the pattern of warming in California is complex.  If you want a free copy of the paper itself, email the corresponding author (LaDochy) and I&#039;m confident he&#039;ll send you one (as he would have done for the Freep guy).


]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony, if there&#8217;s an blatant bias from microsite effects at this USHCN site, one would think that would be apparent in even a short-term trend comparison (probably of daily data) with the CRN station.  As you note, over two years of data are available for the latter.  I agree that subtle effects would require more years of CRN data, but I thought the point of this post was to single out a station where that wouldn&#8217;t be the case.</p>
<p>John Hekman, that Freep post was very confused.  If you look at the <a href="http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/cr/v33/n2/p159-169/" rel="nofollow">JPL press release</a>, things should become more clear.  Unsurprisingly, the pattern of warming in California is complex.  If you want a free copy of the paper itself, email the corresponding author (LaDochy) and I&#8217;m confident he&#8217;ll send you one (as he would have done for the Freep guy).</p>
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		<title>By: John Hekman</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1680</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Hekman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1680</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anthony
Are you aware of the study of California&#039;s climate done by two climatologists from JPL and Cal State LA earlier this year?  It suppposedly concluded from analysis of over 300 weather stations in Cal. that the increase in temp over the last 100 years was mostly due to UHI.  Here is a story:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1810054/posts&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1810054/posts&lt;/a&gt;
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony<br />
Are you aware of the study of California&#8217;s climate done by two climatologists from JPL and Cal State LA earlier this year?  It suppposedly concluded from analysis of over 300 weather stations in Cal. that the increase in temp over the last 100 years was mostly due to UHI.  Here is a story:<br />
<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1810054/posts" rel="nofollow">http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1810054/posts</a></p>
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		<title>By: Steve Moore</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1679</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Moore]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1679</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Evan,
&quot;And if you have any have reason to mistrust it,
We&#039;ll adjust it!&quot;

That&#039;s the old Groucho Marx song!

(I haven&#039;t rewritten song lyrics in years. This one&#039;s tempting)


]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evan,<br />
&#8220;And if you have any have reason to mistrust it,<br />
We&#8217;ll adjust it!&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the old Groucho Marx song!</p>
<p>(I haven&#8217;t rewritten song lyrics in years. This one&#8217;s tempting)</p>
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		<title>By: Stan Needham</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1678</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stan Needham]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1678</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Evan,

The &quot;adjust it&quot; mindset is beginning to get picked up across the Internet in places other than climate blogs.  The American Thinker had &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/09/one_more_reason_to_distrust_gl.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a great article&lt;/a&gt; yesterday that was easy for a layman like me to follow.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evan,</p>
<p>The &#8220;adjust it&#8221; mindset is beginning to get picked up across the Internet in places other than climate blogs.  The American Thinker had <a href="http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/09/one_more_reason_to_distrust_gl.html" rel="nofollow">a great article</a> yesterday that was easy for a layman like me to follow.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1677</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is there any chance that the CRN will be &quot;calibrated&quot; or &quot;adjusted&quot; by comparing it with the  nearby MMTS site?
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any chance that the CRN will be &#8220;calibrated&#8221; or &#8220;adjusted&#8221; by comparing it with the  nearby MMTS site?</p>
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		<title>By: George M</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1676</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1676</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems to me that this exercise revolves around one point, whether the earth&#039;s temperature is changing.  But, consider this.  Any site which has changed in any way is no longer certifiable as having a record which relates over a long period of time.  So, whether the site is class 1 or class 8 (snicker), if it is exactly the same (not likely) as it was 50 or 100 years ago, then the data might be relevant.  All this massaging of data to &quot;compensate&quot; for site changes is just obsfuscation for results dictated data taking.  I have several remote reading thermometers scattered around the place here.  All were checked against each other and read the same when adjacent. However, I see as much as a 4 degree difference around a 2 acre lot, which tells me that site location moves completely negate the validity of any long term comparisons, from which to derive trends.  As Steve Milloy emphasizes, there can&#039;t be much certainty about trends when there is no agreement on what the earth&#039;s temperature is anyway, and this is just another example down at the individual location level.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that this exercise revolves around one point, whether the earth&#8217;s temperature is changing.  But, consider this.  Any site which has changed in any way is no longer certifiable as having a record which relates over a long period of time.  So, whether the site is class 1 or class 8 (snicker), if it is exactly the same (not likely) as it was 50 or 100 years ago, then the data might be relevant.  All this massaging of data to &#8220;compensate&#8221; for site changes is just obsfuscation for results dictated data taking.  I have several remote reading thermometers scattered around the place here.  All were checked against each other and read the same when adjacent. However, I see as much as a 4 degree difference around a 2 acre lot, which tells me that site location moves completely negate the validity of any long term comparisons, from which to derive trends.  As Steve Milloy emphasizes, there can&#8217;t be much certainty about trends when there is no agreement on what the earth&#8217;s temperature is anyway, and this is just another example down at the individual location level.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Jones</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1675</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evan Jones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1675</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And if you have any have reason to mistrust it,
We&#039;ll adjust it!
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And if you have any have reason to mistrust it,<br />
We&#8217;ll adjust it!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Sam Urbinto</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1674</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Urbinto]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-31/#comment-1674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s a few ideas about temperature sensors, site standards, and data collection I&#039;m just throwing out here.  None of the figures are necessarily the correct ones, I&#039;m just making them up. Some of these things will vary depending on if you&#039;re talking about existing sites or new ones, but eh.  It&#039;s just some ideas I got over at CA I thought I&#039;d rewrite a bit and put in one post.

Sensors need to have a high enough degree of resolution to track temperatures to .01 C

Sensors need to be regularly calibrated.

Sensors need to be shielded from wind, snow, rain, dust, and heat, and from possible human or animal interference or general damage.

Shields need to not heat or cool the air or otherwise disrupt the free mixing of the surface’s thermal characteristics with the air.

Sensors need to all be at a uniform height (5 feet?) consistent with measuring the Atmospheric Boundry Layer (ie not so low they measure the surface itself only directly under the sensor and not so high they’re not in the surface layer of the ABL.)

Sensors need to be far enough away (100 feet?) from obstructions and other materials that might interact with or influence the surface/air mix.

Sensors need to be located in a place indicative of the majority of the area being sampled (adjusting that size to fit the situation, as needed).

The area being sampled needs to be large enough to be meaningful, but not so large there are too many varied conditions in the area.  (eg 5x5 is too big IMHO)

The area being sampled needs to be of a known size, so the sensor’s contribution to the whole can be weighted properly.  (Why compare 10x10 to .5x.5?)

The location of the sensor has to be of a known altitude and there needs to be 1 hygrometer at the site to also track humidity.

There will be a minimum of 3 sensors at least 10 feet apart. (YMMV)

Sensors will take frequent samples and report them via radio, IR, satellite, wireless Internet or burried cable to a recording station.

Humidity readings will be transmitted at the same time as temperature.

Recording stations will collect the temperature and humidity information and in conjunction with altitude, generate an additional figure of effective temperature (or to normalize to some standard humidity and altitude?).

There will be 1 recording station per 5 sites, which will correlate the data from the sites with each other to ensure nothing abnormal is going on (and/or perform calculations on them?).

There will be an automated process to collect the data from the recording stations at 1 or more locations, where any further needed processing will take place at as many levels and to the degrees required.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a few ideas about temperature sensors, site standards, and data collection I&#8217;m just throwing out here.  None of the figures are necessarily the correct ones, I&#8217;m just making them up. Some of these things will vary depending on if you&#8217;re talking about existing sites or new ones, but eh.  It&#8217;s just some ideas I got over at CA I thought I&#8217;d rewrite a bit and put in one post.</p>
<p>Sensors need to have a high enough degree of resolution to track temperatures to .01 C</p>
<p>Sensors need to be regularly calibrated.</p>
<p>Sensors need to be shielded from wind, snow, rain, dust, and heat, and from possible human or animal interference or general damage.</p>
<p>Shields need to not heat or cool the air or otherwise disrupt the free mixing of the surface’s thermal characteristics with the air.</p>
<p>Sensors need to all be at a uniform height (5 feet?) consistent with measuring the Atmospheric Boundry Layer (ie not so low they measure the surface itself only directly under the sensor and not so high they’re not in the surface layer of the ABL.)</p>
<p>Sensors need to be far enough away (100 feet?) from obstructions and other materials that might interact with or influence the surface/air mix.</p>
<p>Sensors need to be located in a place indicative of the majority of the area being sampled (adjusting that size to fit the situation, as needed).</p>
<p>The area being sampled needs to be large enough to be meaningful, but not so large there are too many varied conditions in the area.  (eg 5&#215;5 is too big IMHO)</p>
<p>The area being sampled needs to be of a known size, so the sensor’s contribution to the whole can be weighted properly.  (Why compare 10&#215;10 to .5x.5?)</p>
<p>The location of the sensor has to be of a known altitude and there needs to be 1 hygrometer at the site to also track humidity.</p>
<p>There will be a minimum of 3 sensors at least 10 feet apart. (YMMV)</p>
<p>Sensors will take frequent samples and report them via radio, IR, satellite, wireless Internet or burried cable to a recording station.</p>
<p>Humidity readings will be transmitted at the same time as temperature.</p>
<p>Recording stations will collect the temperature and humidity information and in conjunction with altitude, generate an additional figure of effective temperature (or to normalize to some standard humidity and altitude?).</p>
<p>There will be 1 recording station per 5 sites, which will correlate the data from the sites with each other to ensure nothing abnormal is going on (and/or perform calculations on them?).</p>
<p>There will be an automated process to collect the data from the recording stations at 1 or more locations, where any further needed processing will take place at as many levels and to the degrees required.</p>
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