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The Chico News and Review has gotten quite a number of letters on their 911 Truth article which gave a platform to the people whom prefer to believe that a gigantic government conspiracy was the reason behind the 911 WTC collapse, and that the towers were brought down with explosives, rather than by fire.
I wrote a short blog essay on the subject, and a letter to the editor, pointing out that the recent collapse of the I580-880 freeway interchange had a lot of similarities, illustrating that fire can indeed take town steel and concrete structures.
Predictably, the 911Truthers lobbed a couple of ticked off letters back at me, even going so far as to say I’m “spreading distortions”.
While I don’t intend to argue their points, since you can’t usually come out winning when you argue with people whom believe conspiracy theories, I will present another view.
For those of you that prefer rational science and engineering, I present this item, a paper published in 2003 by The Journal of The Minerals, Metals & Materials Society, presents a balanced view that shows that the collapse didn’t need steel melting temperatures to occur. It was written by Thomas W. Eagar, the Thomas Lord Professor of Materials Engineering and Engineering Systems, and Christopher Musso, graduate research student, at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
You can read the report in its entirety here: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
Or just skip to this conclusion:
While it was impossible for the fuel-rich, diffuse-flame fire to burn at a temperature high enough to melt the steel, its quick ignition and intense heat caused the steel to lose at least half its strength and to deform, causing buckling or crippling. This weakening and deformation caused a few floors to fall, while the weight of the stories above them crushed the floors below, initiating a domino collapse.
There’s a maxim called Occam’s Razor; “All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one.” In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and hypothetical entities tends to be correct. Conspiracy theories require many more assumptions, some unprovable, than a fire and materials failure does.
NOTE: Comments have been closed to prevent overrunn by 911 Truthers, whom seem as irrational as ever and intent on proving their twisted logic.
There are a number of people with alternative explanations for the 580 freeway collapse. They have put together a website to debunk the conventional story of this event. I’m reluctant to go along with the story published in the liberal media. http://www.429truth.com/
Holy cow Jim!
I read some of the entries on http://www.429truth.com and they make some of the wildest claims made by the 911Truthers look reasonable by comparison.
This website truly represents the cutting edge of the lunatic fringe.
My favorite leap of twisted logic lunacy barking at the moon crazy there is this one:
“In fact, the last time sunspot activity was similarly low was February of 2006, the same month in which the Al-Salaam Boccaccio 98, a ferry en route from Saudi Arabia to Egypt, burst into flames and sank in the Red Sea, killing more than 1000 of the nearly 1400 on board.”
Yeah, ok. Ummm… sunspots cause accidents, now I’ve heard it all. Prepare for the descent into the city of Loonoidia.
Do these freaks actually think their conspiracy theories will be viewed as anything more than hysterically funny jokes? When I started reading, I was mystified. As I continued to read I was dumbfounded. Then astounded. Then amused. Then I was truly ROTFLMAO. Then I began to wonder what the point was. What do these people think there is to gain from this? No one in their right mind would believe such drivel. These people will continue to post this crap on websites, newsletters, and Art Bell’s Freak Show. Don’t they see that it is the same people over and over again that are posting and commenting? They go in circles talking to each other! No one else hears them. And the few new people that do hear it can smell the BS like a fart in a car. It just seems to pointless.
That 429truth.com is pretty obviously a joke.
Maybe your next post can be about bonsai kittens.
Anthony,
Please don’t resort to name calling for people who have a sincere skepticism for the conventional government story. We know that the conventional government story for Global Warming is very suspicions. We now know that the Moon landing was also a hoax. So shouldn’t we also be skeptical of events such as 9/11 and 4/29? Please, I urge you to have an open mind.
The moon landing was a hoax? Well Jim, I’m sorry but you are wrong about that.
I’ve seen firsthand at observatories, the laser moon-bounce from the corner prism optical reflectors left there by Apollo astronauts.
you can read more about it here: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/science/20060713-9999-lz1c13laser.html
And from NASA directly with pictures of the reflectors:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/21jul_llr.htm
Having seen it firsthand myself, with a laser trained on the Sea of Tranquility pulsing, and watching the pulses come back on the oscilloscope, I’m quite certain (not that I ever doubted it) that the laser reflectors were placed there by us.
But for those that just can’t believe it, here’s a page that knocks down the moon landing hoax premises.
http://www.redzero.demon.co.uk/moonhoax/
The laser reflectors were placed by robotic landers. The Soviets also placed 2 reflectors with their Lunokhod 1 and Lunokhod 2 missions. However the Soviets never claimed that they sent men to the moon. A few years ago, FOX aired a TV special which debunked the whole moon landing hoax.
Back to the 580 freeway collapse. I became suspicious when I saw the Governor posing for photos in front of the wreckage. This event has allowed the government to provide politically well connected contractors a blank check to spend taxpayer money. This is what all these hoaxes have in common, that is spending large amounts of taxpayer money, usually with little oversight or restrictions.
Governor Schwarzenegger is of course fully on board with the global warming scam, and wants to freely spend our money to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.
Jim by your logic, Lindbergh never made it across the Atlantic. If I follow conspiracy theory evolution correctly, they just put his plane on a boat, reassembled it there, and he took off from England and flew to Paris.
This was all a publicity stunt so that world governments could “waste” money on building up aviation in the early 20th century.
Of course that’s wrong, but just as absurd as believing the Apollo Moon Landings were staged so the government could waste money.
I’ll point out a few things:
The Apollo program was scheduled to go past Apollo 17, but congress cut off funding for it after that mission.
The moon rocks that have been returned to earth have been distributed to geologists worldwide, none of them are claiming the rocks are of fabricated or terrestrial origin. And no they aren’t meteorites that have been picked up in Antarctica, because they have no earth atmosphere or bacterial contamination.
There were upwards to 100,000 people working on the Apollo program. Pulling off a giant hoax with that many people, especially with the brightest minds in the world, wouldn’t be possible. Somebody of stature would figure it out.
I’m sorry Jim, but you are 100% wrong about the moon landing being a hoax.
Do you think that Congress would have cut off the funding if we were actually getting Americans on the Moon? Of course not, they cut off the funding because they knew it was a hoax.
Right after the first Moon ’landing’ I saw a geologist on TV who commented how the moon rocks were virtually indistinguishable from ones he had found on earth. He named the place, but I don’t recall where it was. Gee, never saw him on TV again.
All one needs to do to remove atmospheric and bacterial contamination of a terrestrial rock, is to sand blast the surface till it’s clean in a dry nitrogen chamber.
I’m sure many of the NASA workers were unaware of the hoax, however many knew but kept quiet so they could continue with other projects which they wanted to pursue.
You might ask the same thing about the Global Warming hoax. Why are so many thousands of respected scientists going along with it. And the answer is the same, access to large amounts of funding, mostly at taxpayer expense.
Regarding Jim’s comments, Jim I was wondering how old you are?
If you were under the age of 12, and it sounds like you could be, I would like to give you some reading material to explain some basic things to you to help you understand.
If you are older than 12 and under 18, you should be capable of doing this yourself and I strongly encourage you to seek enlightenment!
But, if you are an adult and you are still clinging to such silly thoughts, well sir, I doubt any reference material, facts or education would help you. You know what you know and thats that. Mind closed.
Response to the Chico 9/11 Truthers has been typical of the treatment Truthers get in the national arena — they are marginalized as kooks and dismissed as conspiracy theory crackpots. I am writing to inform the public at large that nothing could be further from the truth.
I have been quietly investigating 9/11 Truth groups since they made their first appearance before the dust had settled at the World Trade Center. Truther web sites popped up en masse nearly over night. Within days Truthers were calling radio talk shows, flooding Internet chat rooms, and creating web logs to promote their point of view. They have been been well organized and efficient at getting their message out and it is time for the truth about 9/11 Truth groups to come out.
9/11 Truthers are members of a vast, well connected conspiracy of devious, highly intelligent and skilled propagandists who will do and say anything to further their own nefarious end. That end is to discredit, defame, and vilify the United States government with any means at their disposal. Were it not for 9/11 the Truthers would be working dozens of other stories that would not garner nearly as much attention.
So beware, 9/11 Truthers are well organized and after the minds of your children. Anyone who calls me a conspiracy kook is likely working with them.
I must admit that it amazed me the first time I saw video of the conspiracy nuts saying the WTC collapse was intentional. A bit of background, I’m a retired Journeyman Farrier (injury) and now a Machinist, CNC Machine Specialist.
The simple lack of understanding that lower than melting point temperatures of the structural steel, coupled with the immense impact loading of the upper story collapse would lead to complete collapse is mind boggling. I predicted the collapse a while before it happened, made the comment by phone to a couple of family members that if the fire wasn’t controlled soon that the upper floors would come down and destroy the rest of the building. I wasn’t surprised, just horrified knowing many people would still be in there.
If a ‘dumb ol blacksmith’ knew it before hand, then why is it so hard for adults to understand now? For that matter how did it become dogma to them that the steel had to reach a liquid state before losing it’s mechanical strength? I know my circles are limited in some degrees, horse people and manufacturing people largely, but I thought EVERYONE understood the concept that as metal is heated it becomes more and more plastic.
Truly people, if you honestly believe that the collapse was due to demolition charges you need to seek professional psychiatric help, I mean this with no harshness nor with scorn but as an honest peace of well intentioned advice to someone that needs it.
How ironic that Anthony Watts, who so vehemently denies global warming, is arguing with a moon landing hoax nut. Jim and Anthony are both nuts! Global warming is no more a hoax than the moon landing.
*** NOTE from Anthony:
Mr. Adams, I don’t deny global warming is occurring, only that it’s main component is not anthropogenic. There’s a difference. Nor have I ever called it a hoax. Please, get your facts straight before you start calling people names. Or, try asking a question or two before you “assume”. Thank you for your consideration.
All of these issues hinge on logic and scientific evidence. The Moon landings are real, faking them at that time with the details evident would have cost far more than the landings did and required 100,000 people to all agree to lie. The Moon landing hoax idea is just plain stupid.
The 9/11 truthers obviously know less than nothing about materials strength or thermodynamics. They propose a complicated nearly impossible to pull off conspiracy among hundreds of thousands of people when the simple visual evidence and the structure of the building provide a much more logical explanation. I had a relative in the WTC at the time, the plane hitting his building was not a camera trick.
AGW well once again evidence… Most of the case for AGW is made from computer models. The hard data supporting the case for immenent catastrophic warming is very very weak and getting weaker almost by the day.
Global warming happens, humans may contribute but that is a very differnt thing than the doomsday hype we have shoved down our throats. Has anyone produced any real evidence that increased CO2 and a temperature increase of a couple degrees would be a bad thing? I know of a lot of evidence that it would be very good for the biosphere.
I could sure use some warming! It is very cold up here